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olly cromwell 03-11-2020 04:52 AM

Original cpfc kit colours
 
There seems to be a little confusion (in my tiny mind anyway) as to what the team colours of the original cpfc were
Wikipedia has them at light blue and white halved shirts, white shorts black socks and yet there are some references that have them in blue and white hoops, blue shorts and socks

I know the colours were taken from the paint colours on the actual crystal palace so do any of our resident experts have any ideas on this

bubbs11 03-11-2020 05:59 AM

Someone with more knowledge than me will clarify it I’m sure, but I thought someone recently unearthed some literature that pointed to us originally wearing blue and a crimson red or something???

Are we talking about the 1905 side here or the 1861 one? :)

Dogburger 03-11-2020 06:10 AM

http://historicalkits.co.uk/Crystal_...tal_Palace.htm

Dobbo 03-11-2020 06:20 AM

I always thought that when Edmund Goodman arrived from Aston Villa to be our first secretary he bought a set of their kit with him, hence the claret and blue.

CP Satellite 03-11-2020 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olly cromwell (Post 15487118)
There seems to be a little confusion (in my tiny mind anyway) as to what the team colours of the original cpfc were
Wikipedia has them at light blue and white halved shirts, white shorts black socks and yet there are some references that have them in blue and white hoops, blue shorts and socks

I know the colours were taken from the paint colours on the actual crystal palace so do any of our resident experts have any ideas on this

The answer to your question Olly sadly, nobody actually knows!

Presumably, as you mention the blue and white colours, you are talking about the original 1861 CPFC.

We know the colours for sure, because they were recorded in one of the earliest football handbooks produced in Victorian times edited by Charles Alcock, probably the most pivotal figure in the earliest years of the FA and key to founding the FA Cup and International Football - he also happened to play for the original Palace team several times too.

https://i.ibb.co/ftphn3N/78-F5136-E-...14-C3-A777.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/0rJQKvZ/F823-EEC4-C...24-A356918.jpg

So we know Palace 1861 wore blue & white tops with blue shorts, although, as you can see, the dates do not go all the way back to the founding of the club - we have another report of Palace wearing red and black and playing in Penge - and we can pinpoint this to 1865 - because Palace briefly had to play near the Crooked Billet Pub in Penge, only a couple of hundred yards from CP Park, as the CP Company were trying to establish the CP Cricket ground as a first class venue for Kent County Cricket Club, but this didn’t continue and the Palace football team moved back to CP Park in 1866 - as you can see, the blue and white colours are recorded a couple of years later.


The perception is that the kit would have been thin blue and white hoops, in the style most prevalent at the time. Halves seem to not be around for most clubs in the 1860s - but without a defining picture, it’s really all guesses.


Of course, the 1905 incarnation of CPFC wore Cardinal red and blue. This has been well established as it is actually recorded in the original CPFC minute book from 1905 and all subsequent reports right up to the 1930s. The ‘Claret and Light Blue’ description did not come in until 1949 - between 1938 right up to the mid 1960s, Palace’s kit was usually mainly white shirts with black shorts.

CP Satellite 03-11-2020 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dobbo (Post 15487152)
I always thought that when Edmund Goodman arrived from Aston Villa to be our first secretary he bought a set of their kit with him, hence the claret and blue.

Edmund Goodman, it seems, had not been employed by Villa for some time before he was recommended to the CP Company board by Villa Chairman William McGregor (founder of the Football League).

The CP Company had been consulting with McGregor for many years prior to forming the professional CPFC in 1905.

We know from many descriptions that Villa wore a different kit to Palace in 1905 - they wore the Claret and Light Blue sleeved shirts - Palace wore Red and Blue, there is no description anywhere of Palace wearing Claret and Light Blue in any report, programme or annual until well after WWII.

olly cromwell 03-11-2020 06:06 PM

Thanks guys for all of your imput
I think that there is enough evidence to suggest that the original 1861 colours were blue and white hoops the main question seems to be what shade of blue with lightish blue being my personnal guess, however that really depends on what was available at the time and more interestingly who made them

Do we still think that the Wikipedia colours (sky and white halves) were the ones worn in the first FA cup ?

Maidstoned Eagle 03-11-2020 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CP Satellite (Post 15487180)
Edmund Goodman, it seems, had not been employed by Villa for some time before he was recommended to the CP Company board by Villa Chairman William McGregor (founder of the Football League).

The CP Company had been consulting with McGregor for many years prior to forming the professional CPFC in 1905.

We know from many descriptions that Villa wore a different kit to Palace in 1905 - they wore the Claret and Light Blue sleeved shirts - Palace wore Red and Blue, there is no description anywhere of Palace wearing Claret and Light Blue in any report, programme or annual until well after WWII.

So the link Dogburger posted up is wrong?

El Aguila 03-11-2020 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CP Satellite (Post 15487180)
Edmund Goodman, it seems, had not been employed by Villa for some time before he was recommended to the CP Company board by Villa Chairman William McGregor (founder of the Football League).

The CP Company had been consulting with McGregor for many years prior to forming the professional CPFC in 1905.

We know from many descriptions that Villa wore a different kit to Palace in 1905 - they wore the Claret and Light Blue sleeved shirts - Palace wore Red and Blue, there is no description anywhere of Palace wearing Claret and Light Blue in any report, programme or annual until well after WWII.

But in the photos, we do wear dark shirts with lighter sleeves, I think.

Louis 03-11-2020 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CP Satellite (Post 15487153)
The ‘Claret and Light Blue’ description did not come in until 1949 - between 1938 right up to the mid 1960s, Palace’s kit was usually mainly white shirts with black shorts.

I didn't know that - thanks. Is there anyone on here who actually remembers seeing Palace play in white shirts/black shorts?

CP Satellite 04-11-2020 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olly cromwell (Post 15487914)
Thanks guys for all of your imput
I think that there is enough evidence to suggest that the original 1861 colours were blue and white hoops the main question seems to be what shade of blue with lightish blue being my personnal guess, however that really depends on what was available at the time and more interestingly who made them

Do we still think that the Wikipedia colours (sky and white halves) were the ones worn in the first FA cup ?


Personally, I doubt it. It’s been thought that the original CPFC wore thin blue and white hoops with blue shorts (or knickerbockers as they were called!) with blue socks for quite some time.

The blue and white halved kit that has been displayed in recent club information on the subject seems to be a bit of poetic licence - but there again, nobody has ever produced a photograph, so all we have are the colours as described - I think there was an artists impression of that hooped shirt from a newspaper clipping - but I have not seen that again for years - so it’s a bit of a guess.

https://i.ibb.co/7Yt9w63/A956-F80-B-...6514567154.jpg

CP Satellite 04-11-2020 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Aguila (Post 15487979)
But in the photos, we do wear dark shirts with lighter sleeves, I think.


I think there may be a subtle difference between Aston Villa’s Claret & Light Blue of 1905 and Palace’s Cardinal and Blue.

It may be the case that the colours are so close that they don’t make much difference in the memories of older Palace fans.

I’ve certainly never met an older fan that described Palace as wearing cardinal and blue - in fact there are many that insist Palace’s colours ARE claret and blue and were not happy with the change in 1973 to red and blue.

But the fact remains that pre 1949 - Palace are only described as wearing cardinal and blue:

https://i.ibb.co/Bw57DBf/30-AE908-F-...EDD00937-E.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/1bmqHGp/60-A8-F06-A...571-A64-E3.jpg

this article is from a local northern paper - The Shipley Times - August 1920

CP Satellite 04-11-2020 12:36 PM

Here’s a little experiment that probably won’t solve the puzzle, but might give a different perspective on the mystery of the colours.

Here are the Aston Villa team of 1905:

https://i.ibb.co/LN70WNT/DB41633-A-F...D65-AF3-D2.jpg

Palace 1905:

https://i.ibb.co/grXgzYs/C60014-B3-D...0-A60967-F.jpg




Here’s a team that wore red, Liverpool:

https://i.ibb.co/q15HQqQ/401928-AB-5...9826256-C9.jpg

Here are some blues, Everton:

https://i.ibb.co/hC8JqBr/46-D3-A30-B...04-A562-D9.jpg

Finally, let’s take a look at some Light Blues, Man City:

https://i.ibb.co/9gJKqnR/DAAF45-BC-5...-CB0-C4216.jpg

As this proves virtually nothing, perhaps we need a little help in imagining the Palace supporters from around this time:

Here, the Woolwich Gazette (February 1907) describes the Palace support on their recent trip to Fulham.

https://i.ibb.co/2ZjKh6d/E8-C6-A001-...F8-A8-D6-E.jpg

olly cromwell 05-11-2020 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CP Satellite (Post 15487153)
So we know Palace 1861 wore blue & white tops with blue shorts, although, as you can see, the dates do not go all the way back to the founding of the club - we have another report of Palace wearing red and black and playing in Penge - and we can pinpoint this to 1865 - because Palace briefly had to play near the Crooked Billet Pub in Penge, only a couple of hundred yards from CP Park, as the CP Company were trying to establish the CP Cricket ground as a first class venue for Kent County Cricket Club, but this didn’t continue and the Palace football team moved back to CP Park in 1866 - as you can see, the blue and white colours are recorded a couple of years later.


The perception is that the kit would have been thin blue and white hoops, in the style most prevalent at the time. Halves seem to not be around for most clubs in the 1860s - but without a defining picture, it’s really all guesses.


Of course, the 1905 incarnation of CPFC wore Cardinal red and blue. This has been well established as it is actually recorded in the original CPFC minute book from 1905 and all subsequent reports right up to the 1930s. The ‘Claret and Light Blue’ description did not come in until 1949 - between 1938 right up to the mid 1960s, Palace’s kit was usually mainly white shirts with black shorts.

Fascinating reply and a very interesting topic, any ideas on the red and black design or could it even have been a change kit also in 1905 after our reformation do we know our away colours for that time ?

CP Satellite 06-11-2020 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olly cromwell (Post 15491357)
Fascinating reply and a very interesting topic, any ideas on the red and black design or could it even have been a change kit also in 1905 after our reformation do we know our away colours for that time ?

The original CPFC (1861) are believed to have worn red and black from a brief report on the club showing they briefly played just outside CP Park and wore those colours - we have no description of the design, although they were also the colours of South Norwood FC who were around in the 1870s. The blue and white colours are obviously from a later date as you can see from the details given earlier in the the thread.

The 1905 CPFC used to wear ‘Cambridge’ blue shirts as a change kit, it’s a pale blue and we have reports of them wearing the kit in home games - before the 1920s, the home team had to change kit in the event of a clash of shirt colours.

StevePlus 06-11-2020 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CP Satellite (Post 15487153)
The ‘Claret and Light Blue’ description did not come in until 1949 - between 1938 right up to the mid 1960s, Palace’s kit was usually mainly white shirts with black shorts.

The colours for the late 1950s until about 1963 were, as you say, white shirts and black shorts, but the shirts had what were described at the time as "claret and blue facings". In Dick Graham's time it switched to all white for a while, although people still thought of our colours as claret and blue. They then switched to various forms of claret and blue until the famous switch (back?) to red and blue.

CP Satellite 06-11-2020 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevePlus (Post 15491962)
The colours for the late 1950s until about 1963 were, as you say, white shirts and black shorts, but the shirts had what were described at the time as "claret and blue facings". In Dick Graham's time it switched to all white for a while, although people still thought of our colours as claret and blue. They then switched to various forms of claret and blue until the famous switch (back?) to red and blue.

Yes, that’s pretty much the case from what I have read and heard from older fans on the matter.

It’s funny because fans of different ages will have a bigger memory of Palace playing in white & black and those that will only associate claret and blue as the Palace colours.

I can well remember the day Palace wore red and blue for the first game of the 1973/74 season - at home to Notts County. Many fans were very angry that Malcolm Allison had changed the colours and us losing 4-1 didn’t help matters either!

olly cromwell 06-11-2020 03:54 PM

A few years ago I was quite an avid collector of enamel Crystal Palace badges, unfortunatly due to a "mortgage emergency" I had to sell some of the better ones BUT I do remember being surprised by the fact that some of the older (30s - 40s) supporters club badges were enamelled in red & blue

I will try to see if I can find any pictures online to check that my memory hasn't betrayed me

There are a couple of big collectors and we may have to contact the font of all wisdom on these matters "Dorking"

The point being is that it is extremly unlikely that an official supporters club would have issued a yearly badge in anything other than the official colours

CP Satellite 06-11-2020 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olly cromwell (Post 15492293)
A few years ago I was quite an avid collector of enamel Crystal Palace badges, unfortunatly due to a "mortgage emergency" I had to sell some of the better ones BUT I do remember being surprised by the fact that some of the older (30s - 40s) supporters club badges were enamelled in red & blue

I will try to see if I can find any pictures online to check that my memory hasn't betrayed me

There are a couple of big collectors and we may have to contact the font of all wisdom on these matters "Dorking"

The point being is that it is extremly unlikely that an official supporters club would have issued a yearly badge in anything other than the official colours

I remember seeing a Palace Supporters Club pennant at the Centenary Exhibition at Croydon Library - which was a red star on a blue background. Not sure, but I think it was dated to about the time of the 1937/38 red and blue striped kit?

I would say though, the pre-1937 colours ‘Cardinal and Blue’ are not the same. There is a subtle difference between Claret and Cardinal and Light Blue and Cambridge or Pale Blue - which I think are the difference, in description at least, between the Aston Villa (and also Burnley and West Ham kits) and Palace’s between 1905-1937.

I’ve read a bit more on the history of the clubs concerned: Apparently Villa were heavily influenced by the Scots who helped form their club, hence the Lion crest (see also Millwall’s history) and the colours of Hearts and Rangers. Rangers in their earlier years wore light blue - the tradition for Royal Blue came in 1921.

Both West Ham and Burnley are said to have been influenced by Villa’s colours too, although there is a bit of confusion in West Ham’s story as there were a couple of clubs, Castle Swifts and Thames Ironworks, from whom the club originated that also used similar colours in some of their kit choices.

olly cromwell 07-11-2020 05:12 AM

The supporters club pennant you mention also had the same design and colours in a circular supporters club enamel badge, However there also was a round supporters club badge with white outer and red/blue stripes in the centre from roughly the same period as well as at least one other red / blue supporters club badge from that period (one of which had red and blue alternating year bars)


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