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  #10541  
Old 13-05-2021, 10:34 AM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Those working in the mines, shipyards, steelworks, mills and factories were overwhelmingly collectivists: voting Labour was one way they expressed their beliefs. That’s why in the 1950s, Labour won seats such as Blyth, Don Valley, Bolsover and Ashfield with more than 70% of the vote. All those seats now have Tory MPs because the old, secure, well-paid, manual jobs have gone. As a result, the jobs and community organisations that nourished the collectivist identity of its base – such as working men’s clubs and active trade union branches – have shrunk or vanished.
This is very true. The working class is many areas is now atomised, and far more individualist. There isn't a collective working class identity or politics.
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  #10542  
Old 13-05-2021, 10:46 AM
Johnybegood Johnybegood is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Interesting read. Both in terms of 1987 being as bad as 2019 but also the huge change in where Labour's votes come from.



There is a big caveat to this though. The ABCDE figures aren't really up to scratch in the modern era.

Wealthy pensioners who own their own homes are in DE, yet call centre worked can be in ABC. They have a lot to be desired in terms of showing what class is.
Indeed, the dilemma they face in the short term (i.e. the next GE) is that they need the 4m "working class" votes to return but the only way they can do this is to embrace English nationalism and overcome a popular leader who "got brexit done" regardless of the consequences. But if they do this they will lose the middle class intelligentsia vote.

In some ways the debate between the left or centre factions in the labour party is overshadowed by the charisma and nationalism arguments. It doesn't matter if the leader is Corbyn or Starmer as nothing they are saying satisfy their current objectives.

The only way forward for the labour party has to lie in more and more devolution and localism, where effective local politicians e.g. Drakeford, Burnham; make the locals feel that they are benefiting their communities which can overcome nationalism
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  #10543  
Old 13-05-2021, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
This is very true. The working class is many areas is now atomised, and far more individualist. There isn't a collective working class identity or politics.
That didn't stop Tony Blair, who extended the party's appeal by looking beyond the 'working class' (if it still exists in a cohesive form).
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  #10544  
Old 13-05-2021, 11:00 AM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
That didn't stop Tony Blair, who extended the party's appeal by looking beyond the 'working class' (if it still exists in a cohesive form).
The unions and collective working class organisations are much weaker now than in 1997, and Blair not only didn't do anything to reverse it, he continued the process. So this made things worse in the long run for Labour. Also Labour does now get a huge chunk of the middle class vote, this is where it has gained, the main loss has been the working class vote from the 1980s onwards.

Now English nationalism has become so strong and the working class so atomised this will be no easy thing to turn around, but needs to at least be attempted. As that article says:

Quote:
there is a second reason. Many voters stayed loyal to Labour even after their old jobs had gone. Call it habit, or nostalgia, or an identity that lingered after the mines, factories and so on had closed. Labour was losing ground steadily, but not catastrophically.

Looney Tunes cartoons provide the best demonstration of what has happened since. Wile E Coyote was renowned from being chased over a cliff edge. For a time, he continued to run horizontally without falling. Then gravity took over and suddenly pulled him down. Apply this to Labour’s two collapses in the past six years. In Scotland, the 2014 independence referendum caused gravity to kick in north of the border. In England’s ex-industrial heartlands, Brexit and Boris Johnson have had the same effect.
On top of that is the loss of Scotland to the SNP.

Last edited by cockneyrebel; 13-05-2021 at 11:03 AM.
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  #10545  
Old 13-05-2021, 11:05 AM
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It's almost frightening at the moment.

A grim set of affairs, yes the vaccine is an amazing achievement, but it is mad that the ills of the past couple of years has been seemingly forgotten and forgiven by the electorate.

Boris has played a blinder, can expect a rousing win in 2023 (he can name a date) and the enquiry and fallout will no doubt be unveiled till after the next election.

Starmer, for me has not come out with a vision and was creamed in Hartlepool, the Re-shuffle mere window dressing.

Why not bring in heavy hitters like Benn or Cooper?

Respected name who the voters know.

I fear, and expect another heavy defeat and another new body in situ.

Although a fan of the forensic questioning, and some hefty blows, the public at large don't appear swayed
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  #10546  
Old 13-05-2021, 11:50 AM
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The more I've read about Burnham I've rapidly gone off him. But that's from a left wing perspective.
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  #10547  
Old 13-05-2021, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Dogburger View Post
As an employee I wouldnt join a union as they fund the labour party

As a boss Im always going to give hard working non union members a better deal than the socialist pigs who spend most of the time complaining about injustice and the boss being a prat .
Are you a boss though?
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  #10548  
Old 13-05-2021, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
That didn't stop Tony Blair, who extended the party's appeal by looking beyond the 'working class' (if it still exists in a cohesive form).
An irony though is that in doing so the ground work of losing the heartlands was probably set in motion.

Whilst it's clear that Cornyn suffered a huge defeat, other than maybe Bexit, it's hard to think of a Labour Leader more traditionally Labour / working class aligned than Corbyn, without going back to Pre Kinnock policy wise.
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  #10549  
Old 13-05-2021, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Are you a boss though?
Obviously not. Otherwise he would know that you cannot ask if an individual employee is a union member or not.
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  #10550  
Old 13-05-2021, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
This is very true. The working class is many areas is now atomised, and far more individualist. There isn't a collective working class identity or politics.
Post industrial society theory identified that disposable income and self identity, is far more significant than vocation in defining 'social class'.
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  #10551  
Old 13-05-2021, 12:12 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Post industrial society theory identified that disposable income and self identity, is far more significant than vocation in defining 'social class'.
Which is why it's so strange that pensioners who own their home and relatively ok off are put in DE.
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  #10552  
Old 13-05-2021, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Which is why it's so strange that pensioners who own their home and relatively ok off are put in DE.
When that class system was first established it was to do with economic activity, rather than class per se. But I agree with you that whilst it may have made sense then (numerically at least) the entire thing is rather redundant now as a measure of where you stand socially.
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  #10553  
Old 13-05-2021, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Dogburger View Post
As an employee I wouldnt join a union as they fund the labour party

As a boss Im always going to give hard working non union members a better deal than the socialist pigs who spend most of the time complaining about injustice and the boss being a prat .
And that's why you're a dogburger
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  #10554  
Old 13-05-2021, 12:33 PM
Baffled Bob 2 Baffled Bob 2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Johnybegood View Post
Indeed, the dilemma they face in the short term (i.e. the next GE) is that they need the 4m "working class" votes to return but the only way they can do this is to embrace English nationalism and overcome a popular leader who "got brexit done" regardless of the consequences. But if they do this they will lose the middle class intelligentsia vote.

In some ways the debate between the left or centre factions in the labour party is overshadowed by the charisma and nationalism arguments. It doesn't matter if the leader is Corbyn or Starmer as nothing they are saying satisfy their current objectives.

The only way forward for the labour party has to lie in more and more devolution and localism, where effective local politicians e.g. Drakeford, Burnham; make the locals feel that they are benefiting their communities which can overcome nationalism
You don't have to embrace English nationalism. You can seek to redefine it.
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  #10555  
Old 13-05-2021, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
The more I've read about Burnham I've rapidly gone off him. But that's from a left wing perspective.
I don't know much about him, but from this post I'll probably think he's great.
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  #10556  
Old 13-05-2021, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Baffled Bob 2 View Post
You don't have to embrace English nationalism. You can seek to redefine it.
True but efforts to redefine it with any left/central/liberalist definitions seems to me to have failed despite what's happened to fishermen, northern Ireland etc.
The only way to redefine it that seems to work for labour is localism and taking back control through devolution to the English regions.
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  #10557  
Old 13-05-2021, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Which is why it's so strange that pensioners who own their home and relatively ok off are put in DE.
They don't. This is from Telmar using the latest TGI survey.


Grade All Adults 65-74 ~ 75+
A %Col 4.4 3.2 6.0
B %Col 22.0 24.8 30.9
C1 %Col 29.5 32.3 28.2
C2 %Col 20.4 17.7 16.0
D %Col 14.6 9.3 5.7
E %Col 9.1 12.7 13.2
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  #10558  
Old 13-05-2021, 12:43 PM
Baffled Bob 2 Baffled Bob 2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Johnybegood View Post
True but efforts to redefine it with any left/central/liberalist definitions seems to me to have failed despite what's happened to fishermen, northern Ireland etc.
The only way to redefine it that seems to work for labour is localism and taking back control through devolution to the English regions.
What about the English nationalism of the 2012 opening ceremony? I was rather swept along by that. The NHS, Mr Bean, Elgar and the Sex Pistols.

It doesn't always have to be about pushing asylum seekers into the sea.
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  #10559  
Old 13-05-2021, 12:50 PM
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  #10560  
Old 13-05-2021, 01:03 PM
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I don't know much about him, but from this post I'll probably think he's great.
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