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  #821  
Old 29-07-2021, 08:51 PM
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Last edited by Crunchie; 29-07-2021 at 09:00 PM.
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  #822  
Old 29-07-2021, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CP Satellite View Post
The use of ‘Wanderers’ or even ‘Rovers’ after a club’s name was usually a sign that the club concerned had not secured a home ground - it was quite a common theme and of course many clubs of the era, just like CPFC1861, usually were formed by members of a cricket club - which often meant that football matches had to give way to cricket if both needed to use the same ground.

CPFC1861 were hardly alone in disappearing from all records after previously being one of the most prominent clubs of their time.

You only have to look at Wanderers FC, who were unbeaten in 6 FA Cup Finals between 1872 and 1878, but by 1881 played only once a year and by 1887 had folded completely - they simply could not find enough players to form a regular team.

CPFC1861’s had local rivals in South Norwood FC (who actually played one fixture in Holmesdale Road because their usual pitch off Portland Road was not available) and of course Clapham Rovers were also another famous FA Cup club of the era - there was also a Brixton club that was quite prominent and the 105th Regiment army side were based at nearby Camberwell.

Even the mighty Wanderers, who had started life as Forest FC from players of the Forest School in Leytonstone (both the club and the school used to play against CPFC1861) - eventually settled at the Oval, after using several grounds.

All these clubs vanished within a decade or two of CPFC1861, who last played in December 1875.

No definite reason has been found as to why the club disappeared. There is the record of a dispute between the Crystal Palace Company and the football team over the use of the pitch at CP Park - but the CP Cricket team carried on playing right up to 1900 - many of CPFC1861’s players were also CP cricketers, including C.E. Smith, who was not only one of CP61’s leading players, he was also Secretary of the cricket club for many years too and continued to play cricket into the 1890s.

We can’t find a direct link and why should we, the original club was formed by individuals who had met at as original members of a cricket club and wanted to develop the game of football they had played as youngsters in the 1850s at wealthy public schools. They were comfortably off local men who had a good income and could pursue their hobby as amateur sportsmen.

The professional CPFC was formed very much on business lines and indeed none of the original players were local at all and were signed on a contract to play as professional footballers - I’m guessing some of the original CPFC1861 players, that might still have been around in 1905 might not have been totally in agreement with professional football - it was a hugely contentious argument and that is actually the reason Woolwich Arsenal FC, for example, were forced into becoming the only Southern club in the Football League for many years (the only other club, very briefly, were Luton!) - the Amateur London F.A. simply didn’t want them competing as a professional club in the early 1890’s - it fell to Millwall to help form the Southern League in 1895 that Arsenal had proposed a few years earlier.

You can see that from the time CPFC1861 stopped playing in 1875 right up to the professional CPFC being formed in 1905 was a period of great upheaval and change from a sport dominated by gentlemen amateurs from largely Southern public schools, to a professional sport, dominated by working class, with clubs and players from Scotland, the North and the Midlands hugely dominating the top level of the game.

That’s not including the many other changes on and off the pitch - the whole concept of what a football club was in 1875 with usually just it’s members interested in fixtures and very small crowds, even for Cup Finals, to national and internationally famous clubs and players, with attendances of hundreds of thousands travelling the length and breadth of the country to watch.

The two club’s 1861 and 1905 were from different sporting worlds and entirely different concepts. But one thing is for sure, we really couldn’t have had one without the other - if you took the involvement of the 1861CPFC officials and players had in evolving the the F.A. from formation in 1863 with club officials still involved even after CP61 stopped playing in the late 1870s - the formation of the England and Scotland International teams, with players and officials from CPFC and of course the FA Cup too, also with considerable involvement by the original Palace club - football, quite simply, would not be the same game - let alone our modern CPFC - and that, for me, is why we should celebrate the 1861 CPFC.
Thank you for that. Wonderfully written. And I completely agree.

One way of looking at it though is this.

if I have a company and I make a part of the company dormant for a while (the whole thing or say a part of it like using volunteers, who I didn't pay as it was an experiment that didn't work) and then make it active again (as those volunteers would become employees). The original date I started the company according to company records, the original date of creation of that company still remains the same as I never shut the whole thing down as the Park and the Cricket team were successful, even if other ideas were not.

The fact the CP company was there from 1861 to 1905 and the football team went from being volunteers (or amateurs) whether we were playing football from 1875 to 1905 once a year or once a decade, it makes no difference.

It still existed.

CPC still existed. It was still the major shareholder in the 1905 Professional Crystal Palace. CPC still created CPFC1861 (although without re-reading the thread, I am not sure if any shares were needed in an amateur football club as any profits or losses would be to CPC if they played on the CP Park??), then the fact CPC was involved in both periods of Crystal Palace football club, even if it went dormant for a number of years, isn't it immaterial in the grand scheme of things?

Last edited by Crunchie; 29-07-2021 at 09:03 PM.
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  #823  
Old 04-08-2021, 04:09 PM
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If CPFC1861 were still going in 1896 I can see a few here we would have clashed with colour wise,a few on the back row look nearer what I think the shirts may have looked like in the 1860's.

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  #824  
Old 13-10-2021, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CP Satellite View Post
The use of ĎWanderersí or even ĎRoversí after a clubís name was usually a sign that the club concerned had not secured a home ground - it was quite a common theme and of course many clubs of the era, just like CPFC1861, usually were formed by members of a cricket club - which often meant that football matches had to give way to cricket if both needed to use the same ground.

CPFC1861 were hardly alone in disappearing from all records after previously being one of the most prominent clubs of their time.

You only have to look at Wanderers FC, who were unbeaten in 6 FA Cup Finals between 1872 and 1878, but by 1881 played only once a year and by 1887 had folded completely - they simply could not find enough players to form a regular team.

CPFC1861ís had local rivals in South Norwood FC (who actually played one fixture in Holmesdale Road because their usual pitch off Portland Road was not available) and of course Clapham Rovers were also another famous FA Cup club of the era - there was also a Brixton club that was quite prominent and the 105th Regiment army side were based at nearby Camberwell.

Even the mighty Wanderers, who had started life as Forest FC from players of the Forest School in Leytonstone (both the club and the school used to play against CPFC1861) - eventually settled at the Oval, after using several grounds.

All these clubs vanished within a decade or two of CPFC1861, who last played in December 1875.

No definite reason has been found as to why the club disappeared. There is the record of a dispute between the Crystal Palace Company and the football team over the use of the pitch at CP Park - but the CP Cricket team carried on playing right up to 1900 - many of CPFC1861ís players were also CP cricketers, including C.E. Smith, who was not only one of CP61ís leading players, he was also Secretary of the cricket club for many years too and continued to play cricket into the 1890s.

We canít find a direct link and why should we, the original club was formed by individuals who had met at as original members of a cricket club and wanted to develop the game of football they had played as youngsters in the 1850s at wealthy public schools. They were comfortably off local men who had a good income and could pursue their hobby as amateur sportsmen.

The professional CPFC was formed very much on business lines and indeed none of the original players were local at all and were signed on a contract to play as professional footballers - Iím guessing some of the original CPFC1861 players, that might still have been around in 1905 might not have been totally in agreement with professional football - it was a hugely contentious argument and that is actually the reason Woolwich Arsenal FC, for example, were forced into becoming the only Southern club in the Football League for many years (the only other club, very briefly, were Luton!) - the Amateur London F.A. simply didnít want them competing as a professional club in the early 1890ís - it fell to Millwall to help form the Southern League in 1895 that Arsenal had proposed a few years earlier.

You can see that from the time CPFC1861 stopped playing in 1875 right up to the professional CPFC being formed in 1905 was a period of great upheaval and change from a sport dominated by gentlemen amateurs from largely Southern public schools, to a professional sport, dominated by working class, with clubs and players from Scotland, the North and the Midlands hugely dominating the top level of the game.

Thatís not including the many other changes on and off the pitch - the whole concept of what a football club was in 1875 with usually just itís members interested in fixtures and very small crowds, even for Cup Finals, to national and internationally famous clubs and players, with attendances of hundreds of thousands travelling the length and breadth of the country to watch.

The two clubís 1861 and 1905 were from different sporting worlds and entirely different concepts. But one thing is for sure, we really couldnít have had one without the other - if you took the involvement of the 1861CPFC officials and players had in evolving the the F.A. from formation in 1863 with club officials still involved even after CP61 stopped playing in the late 1870s - the formation of the England and Scotland International teams, with players and officials from CPFC and of course the FA Cup too, also with considerable involvement by the original Palace club - football, quite simply, would not be the same game - let alone our modern CPFC - and that, for me, is why we should celebrate the 1861 CPFC.
A top class post to finish off the other quality posts.

CPFC 1861. That's decided.
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  #825  
Old 13-10-2021, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by plumey1969 View Post
If CPFC1861 were still going in 1896 I can see a few here we would have clashed with colour wise,a few on the back row look nearer what I think the shirts may have looked like in the 1860's.

They did like their tashes
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  #826  
Old 14-10-2021, 08:28 AM
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Agree with that statement.!
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  #827  
Old 14-10-2021, 12:50 PM
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Are there any other British clubs out there similar to our situation where the club existed, folded and a few years later reformed whether it be with the same name or different?
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  #828  
Old 14-10-2021, 01:15 PM
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Holmesdale FC has a circa 30 year gap.
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  #829  
Old 14-10-2021, 02:57 PM
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They did like their tashes
And the sash
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  #830  
Old 14-10-2021, 02:59 PM
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Are there any other British clubs out there similar to our situation where the club existed, folded and a few years later reformed whether it be with the same name or different?
I thought the whole point of the claim was that the club didn't actually fold.
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  #831  
Old 14-10-2021, 07:45 PM
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Crystal Palace is figment of our historical imagination
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  #832  
Old 14-10-2021, 07:56 PM
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I thought the whole point of the claim was that the club didn't actually fold.
I think the claim is along similar lines to the likes of AFC Wimbledon fans having banners with 1889 on them.

And Stoke City have 1863 on their club crest, yet their first game was in 1868!

Meanwhile Leeds United started in 1919, as effectively a replacement to Leeds City (est 1904).

So what you choose to claim is pretty much up to you.
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  #833  
Old 14-10-2021, 08:03 PM
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Itís all immaterial, the precedent has been set with AFC Wimbledon and Rangers among others, able to claim the history of their previous incarnations. We have every right to claim our own. The original Wimbledon still exist renamed MKDons so if anything we have more right !
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  #834  
Old 14-10-2021, 08:05 PM
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Crystal Palace is figment of our historical imagination
We think, therefore - we are.
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Old 14-10-2021, 08:08 PM
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Old 16-10-2021, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Dorking .Eagle View Post
Holmesdale FC has a circa 30 year gap.
That about Holmesdale F.C. is not quite correct. I am a member of 'Holmesdale' which is South Norwood Baptist Church and have been looking into the history.
True that the church formed the club early in the 1920s and played their last game in 1922-23 season in the Thornton Heath League. But joined the Excelsior League around 1927 and played in that league until the end of 1938-39 season when they finished 4th in Division 2 with Played 18 Won 8 Drew 2 Lost 8 For 54 Against 43 Points 18. They again started in 1956 without the Church connection although I understand at least two of the players were from the Church. When they were promoted to the Kent League 2007 a few of us from the congregation made visit and saw a couple of games and were made most welcome by everyone. I know it is not connected with this thread but thought worth responding!
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Old 16-10-2021, 12:55 PM
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