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  #10561  
Old 13-05-2021, 01:05 PM
Johnybegood Johnybegood is offline
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Originally Posted by Baffled Bob 2 View Post
What about the English nationalism of the 2012 opening ceremony? I was rather swept along by that. The NHS, Mr Bean, Elgar and the Sex Pistols.

It doesn't always have to be about pushing asylum seekers into the sea.
Yep that was before 2016 and the culmination of a brexit campaign that championed xenophobia and left wing protectionism whilst demonizing elites, experts, intellectualism, liberalism etc .....they really don't give a monkey's about Elgar and they take the NHS for granted or atleast that BJ gave them the vaccine before them invaders who took their jobs from the EU
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  #10562  
Old 13-05-2021, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
They don't. This is from Telmar using the latest TGI survey.


Grade All Adults 65-74 ~ 75+
A %Col 4.4 3.2 6.0
B %Col 22.0 24.8 30.9
C1 %Col 29.5 32.3 28.2
C2 %Col 20.4 17.7 16.0
D %Col 14.6 9.3 5.7
E %Col 9.1 12.7 13.2
Yes but state pensioners are put in E. Even if they own their own house with no mortgage.
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  #10563  
Old 13-05-2021, 01:32 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Yes but state pensioners are put in E. Even if they own their own house with no mortgage.
Fair enough, the issue of old people who only have the state pension but own their own house outright is complex and there are considerable numbers in that position with really meagre incomes. I have been saying this for years on this board that there is a real disaster in the wings due to the fall of the old style pensions, combined with reduced home ownership and the collapse of long term interest rates. Labour could have a real opportunity to be far more assertive in demanding better pensions and social protections for all.
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  #10564  
Old 13-05-2021, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
An irony though is that in doing so the ground work of losing the heartlands was probably set in motion.

Whilst it's clear that Cornyn suffered a huge defeat, other than maybe Bexit, it's hard to think of a Labour Leader more traditionally Labour / working class aligned than Corbyn, without going back to Pre Kinnock policy wise.
There was a distinct lack of trust by the public at large- young people aside.

Demonized by the press

Hamstrung by the shoddy handling of anti semitism in the party

And whilst some of the manifesto was laudable, the question of how we could afford to pay for it was never fully resolved.

And the Damming silence on Brexit, when clarity was needed.

The current incumbent has been caught between two stools, impressive when on the attack, but as yet hasn't unveiled his vision.

I'm not 100% sure he'll even be afforded the opportunity.
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  #10565  
Old 13-05-2021, 01:43 PM
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As a mere aside in the run up to last week's local elections, I was literally bombarded with emails from the liberals. They seem very media savvy.

I like Davey's understated approach, certainly an improvement on his rather villains predecessor, he is certainly passionate about carers
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  #10566  
Old 13-05-2021, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
While I don’t think it’s morally wrong, I think it’s not legal and the employer would be more to blame legally for accepting it and not having the relevant expertise in negotiations.
Thanks for the negotiating advice and no surprise that you think the company somehow more to blame. We were instructed by shareholders to close the deal at the final negotiating meeting, where the summary of the conversation was along the lines of:

Company:' "each 'old contract' employee gets £x in lieu of accepting new T&Cs, with future payrises for three years of CPI +y% (with a minimum of z% pa)"

Union: "we agree and can recommend to our members"

Company: "That's great - by the way we are also going to offer the future pay terms to the non unionised/'new contract' employees"

Union: "if you do that, we cant't recommend the deal to our members"

Company: "Ok, we wont do that then"

Union: "Great, deal will be recommended"

So, we voluntarily offered something that will have probably have cost the company more money at no cost to the unionised members. We then withdraw it because of a threat not to recommend the deal - and, as a consequence, the non unionised/new contract employees had less security of future pay increases. It may well have been an idle threat but there were no lawyers in the room - and even if there were, it would have served the company no purpose whatsoever in pushing the legal argument, i.e. at best it would have delayed the deal and wound them up by getting lawyers involved at the last minute. At worst, it could have risked the whole deal.

As an aside, this was procurement (of a previously poor performing service, both terms of quality and financial ) arranged by one of the most left wing councils in the country, with the T&C change supported by the council and local labour MPs.

Last edited by Philipw; 13-05-2021 at 02:11 PM.
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  #10567  
Old 13-05-2021, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Philipw View Post
Thanks for the negotiating advice and no surprise that you think the company somehow more to blame. We were instructed by shareholders to close the deal at the final negotiating meeting, where the summary of the conversation was along the lines of:

Company:' "each 'old contract' employee gets £x in lieu of accepting new T&Cs, with future payrises for three years of CPI +y% (with a minimum of z% pa)"

Union: "we agree and can recommend to our members"

Company: "That's great - by the way we are also going to offer the future pay terms to the non unionised/'new contract' employees"

Union: "if you do that, we cant't recommend the deal to our members"

Company: "Ok, we wont do that then"

Union: "Great, deal will be recommended"

So, we voluntarily offered something that will have probably have cost the company more money at no cost to the unionised members. We then withdraw it because of a threat not to recommend the deal - and, as a consequence, the non unionised/new contract employees had less security of future pay increases. It may well have been an idle threat but there were no lawyers in the room - and even if there were, it would have served the company no purpose whatsoever in pushing the legal argument, i.e. at best it would have delayed the deal and wound them up by getting lawyers involved at the last minute. At worst, it could have risked the whole deal.

As an aside, this was procurement (of a previously poor performing service, both terms of quality and financial ) arranged by one of the most left wing councils in the country, with the T&C change supported by the council and local labour MPs.
It's a position that makes no sense to me I have to say. If they did that then you would think the position would be that they would want the money you would have spent on the other non-union members to be given as a further top up to union members.

However what you've said seems to confirm to me that it is a two tier TUPE situation. So the lines of what the union wanted wouldn't legally have been down to union and non-union members, but who was TUPE protected and who wasn't. And it might well have been that this also fell on union/non-union lines. Could that be the case?

It's a reaon I'm totally against having two tier agreements (which can also happen with pension agreements), as it ends up setting one set of workers against another.
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  #10568  
Old 13-05-2021, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
It's a position that makes no sense to me I have to say. If they did that then you would think the position would be that they would want the money you would have spent on the other non-union members to be given as a further top up to union members.

However what you've said seems to confirm to me that it is a two tier TUPE situation. So the lines of what the union wanted wouldn't legally have been down to union and non-union members, but who was TUPE protected and who wasn't. And it might well have been that this also fell on union/non-union lines. Could that be the case?

It's a reaon I'm totally against having two tier agreements (which can also happen with pension agreements), as it ends up setting one set of workers against another.
On your first point, it wasn't about the money - it was simply so the union could maximise the differentiation to show their members how much they had won. To be fair (and I'm guessing as they didn't say this), may be they also thought it would maximise the chances of the recommendation being voted through.

it wasn't a TUPE situation - that had already happened when the service transferred a few weeks earlier. It was a post TUPE T&C renegotiation.

Agree with you on two tier workforce - it was already two tier when we inherited it and our preference was to align as much as possible (within the financial envelope that the LA were willing to pay)
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  #10569  
Old 14-05-2021, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
This is very true. The working class is many areas is now atomised, and far more individualist. There isn't a collective working class identity or politics.
Isn't the left partially to blame for this? They've spent decades promoting diversity and dividing people into ever-smaller 'identities'. Admittedly it's typically social/sexual/racial rather than economic, but the effect is certainly to emphasise difference rather than commonality.
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  #10570  
Old 14-05-2021, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
They don't. This is from Telmar using the latest TGI survey.


Grade All Adults 65-74 ~ 75+
A %Col 4.4 3.2 6.0
B %Col 22.0 24.8 30.9
C1 %Col 29.5 32.3 28.2
C2 %Col 20.4 17.7 16.0
D %Col 14.6 9.3 5.7
E %Col 9.1 12.7 13.2
That's Numberwang!
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  #10571  
Old 14-05-2021, 07:02 AM
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That's Numberwang!
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  #10572  
Old 14-05-2021, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
Isn't the left partially to blame for this? They've spent decades promoting diversity and dividing people into ever-smaller 'identities'. Admittedly it's typically social/sexual/racial rather than economic, but the effect is certainly to emphasise difference rather than commonality.
Not really no. It came from the tories destroying industry and destroying the trade union movement.
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  #10573  
Old 14-05-2021, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
CON: 45% (+2)
LAB: 30% (-3)
GRN: 8% (+2)
LDEM: 7% (-)
REFUK: 2% (-1)

via @YouGov

Chgs. w/ 05 May
A new low.
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  #10574  
Old 14-05-2021, 09:12 AM
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I get why Labour's vote is falling but the Tories getting stronger ??!!

An appalling government, who dreadfully mismanaged much of this pandemic (and despite a more sensible, cautious approach recently, by not putting India on the red list, much earlier, could be another error) and yet it is all lapped up by the voters.

Vaccinations (being rolled out successfully here, but not in the EU, making Brexit seem not so bad) seems to have convinced the voters. Or is it, as I said before, the public is generally becoming more right wing, in their views ?
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  #10575  
Old 14-05-2021, 09:22 AM
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I thought Lisa Nandy had a very rough ride on Question Time last night.
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  #10576  
Old 14-05-2021, 09:22 AM
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Lord Adonis saying Tony Blair should be brought back as leader...
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  #10577  
Old 14-05-2021, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
A new low.
Greens above LD (not that it'll mean much with FPTP) is interesting.
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  #10578  
Old 14-05-2021, 09:29 AM
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Lord Adonis saying Tony Blair should be brought back as leader...
Thatís not news !
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  #10579  
Old 14-05-2021, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maiden Eagle View Post
I get why Labour's vote is falling but the Tories getting stronger ??!!

An appalling government, who dreadfully mismanaged much of this pandemic (and despite a more sensible, cautious approach recently, by not putting India on the red list, much earlier, could be another error) and yet it is all lapped up by the voters.

Vaccinations (being rolled out successfully here, but not in the EU, making Brexit seem not so bad) seems to have convinced the voters. Or is it, as I said before, the public is generally becoming more right wing, in their views ?
TINA (There is no alternative)
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  #10580  
Old 14-05-2021, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Maiden Eagle View Post
Or is it, as I said before, the public is generally becoming more right wing, in their views ?
They were always right wing, but racism, misogyny, homophobia are acceptable again now. If it's OK for the Prime Minister and other senior government figures to espouse those views, why shouldn't the public?

It's PC gawn backwards.
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