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  #10481  
Old 12-05-2021, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
Yes to a degree. The image of the party he has inherited from Corbyn still sticks in the craw of many voters. Starmer has a huge mountain to climb to get through this, and it would crush many lesser politicians.
By the 2019 election, Labour had a very bad image. And yet, in the 2017 general election it wiped out the parliamentary majority that the Tories had and, if the media is to be believed, had made Theresa May fearful that she would have to resign. For a few hours, perhaps even a day or two, in 2017 it seemed that Labour might just be able to form a government - until one of the Unionist parties rode to the Tories defence. Labour's share of the vote was only 2 or 3 percent behind the Tories

So in 2017 Labour was very close to being electable - and had the campaign lasted another week, the momentum it had built up might just have delivered a Labour government.

I would suggest, therefore, that something went wrong in the two years leading up to the 2019 election. And I'd go even further and suggest that it was Brexit, and Labour's attempt to ride two horses at once.

As for other factors such as Corbyn's alleged racism / anti semitic views - well, I doubt that it registered with many traditional Labour voters, and those with whom it did register would have been sceptical about the allegations, I suggest.

So Sir Keir inherited a party in a mess, but it also had some long term strengths. And arguably, the worse the mess he inherited, the easier it should be for him to differentiate his Labour party from Corbyn's Labour party.

Sir Keir's failure to date is down to him. His 'Captain Hindsight' moniker is well deserved and will stick.

His failure is summed up by his own cliches and platitudes: "Too little, too late". "It doesn't go far enough". "Yet again, he's behind the curve".

The voters whose support he needs can see him for what he is - but he's too stupid and too vain to recognise that.
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  #10482  
Old 12-05-2021, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Lama View Post
.

The voters whose support he needs can see him for what he is - but he's too stupid and too vain to recognise that.
i think its you that is stupid. but thats just for context.
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  #10483  
Old 12-05-2021, 01:15 PM
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i think its you that is stupid. but thats just for context.
I am. But I'm not posing as an alternative prime minister.
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  #10484  
Old 12-05-2021, 01:21 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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Labour has to earn the support of working class voters and not take them for granted. It clearly isn't achieving that at the moment and some actual policies would be a good place to start.
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Last edited by Nth Kent Eagle; 12-05-2021 at 01:33 PM.
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  #10485  
Old 12-05-2021, 01:28 PM
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"Do you think the Labour party is in touch or out of touch?"

In touch: 12% (-9)
Out of touch: 64% (+17)
[Net rating: -52]

Amongst 2019 Labour voters:

In touch: 28% (-11)
Out of touch: 50% (+22)
[Net rating: -22]

Via @YouGov
, 10 May (+/- since 15 March)

Is that ouch or oof?
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  #10486  
Old 12-05-2021, 01:29 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is online now
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Interesting stats for how many MPs centre left parties would have got under PR:

2010: 223
2015: 267
2017: 303
2019: 264

None of those would be enough for a majority.
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  #10487  
Old 12-05-2021, 01:56 PM
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Where are those figures from?
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  #10488  
Old 12-05-2021, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Interesting stats for how many MPs centre left parties would have got under PR:

2010: 223
2015: 267
2017: 303
2019: 264

None of those would be enough for a majority.
You’re assuming that people would vote for the same party in a PR system. PR tends to obliterate the voter stickiness of FPTP.
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  #10489  
Old 12-05-2021, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
It might be.

But it is also worth remembering that one of the key things that led to Thatcher’s victory in 1979 was her ranting about Union abuse of power.
A few (seven) years back I was in a negotiation with one of the major health/civil service unions on a particular employment dispute. From memory, around half the workforce was unionised. After a few meetings and strikes, we reach an agreement for the union members - it was a reasonable deal for both sides and all seemed happy. I then made the fatal mistake of saying that we would also offer the same deal to the non unionised workforce. The union refused to agree and, whatever we agreed elsewhere, insisted that there must be a better deal for their unionised members - otherwise they would lose membership. So the non unionised workforce got a worse deal than we were prepared to offer.

Genuinely interested in CRs and SE25s view as to whether that behaviour was an abuse of power by the unions?
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  #10490  
Old 12-05-2021, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipw View Post
A few (seven) years back I was in a negotiation with one of the major health/civil service unions on a particular employment dispute. From memory, around half the workforce was unionised. After a few meetings and strikes, we reach an agreement for the union members - it was a reasonable deal for both sides and all seemed happy. I then made the fatal mistake of saying that we would also offer the same deal to the non unionised workforce. The union refused to agree and, whatever we agreed elsewhere, insisted that there must be a better deal for their unionised members - otherwise they would lose membership. So the non unionised workforce got a worse deal than we were prepared to offer.

Genuinely interested in CRs and SE25s view as to whether that behaviour was an abuse of power by the unions?
its it so surprising that unions look after the interests of their members (as opposed to non members)? so NO would be my considered response.
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  #10491  
Old 12-05-2021, 02:30 PM
wrightchipvcfc wrightchipvcfc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lama View Post
By the 2019 election, Labour had a very bad image. And yet, in the 2017 general election it wiped out the parliamentary majority that the Tories had and, if the media is to be believed, had made Theresa May fearful that she would have to resign. For a few hours, perhaps even a day or two, in 2017 it seemed that Labour might just be able to form a government - until one of the Unionist parties rode to the Tories defence. Labour's share of the vote was only 2 or 3 percent behind the Tories

So in 2017 Labour was very close to being electable - and had the campaign lasted another week, the momentum it had built up might just have delivered a Labour government.

I would suggest, therefore, that something went wrong in the two years leading up to the 2019 election. And I'd go even further and suggest that it was Brexit, and Labour's attempt to ride two horses at once.


As for other factors such as Corbyn's alleged racism / anti semitic views - well, I doubt that it registered with many traditional Labour voters, and those with whom it did register would have been sceptical about the allegations, I suggest.

So Sir Keir inherited a party in a mess, but it also had some long term strengths. And arguably, the worse the mess he inherited, the easier it should be for him to
differentiate his Labour party from Corbyn's Labour party.

Sir Keir's failure to date is down to him. His 'Captain Hindsight' moniker is well deserved and will stick.

His failure is summed up by his own cliches and platitudes: "Too little, too late". "It doesn't go far enough". "Yet again, he's behind the curve".


The voters whose support he needs can see him for what he is - but he's too stupid and too vain to recognise that.

I wouldn't say starmer lammy butler and a good few others rode 2 horses on brexit just wanted to stop it brexit voters won't forget that or trust starmer in future. labour would have been better off going with someone who weren't caught up in this got mates in the north who were labour voters but now see them as a London run party and won't be voting for them anytime soon .
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  #10492  
Old 12-05-2021, 02:31 PM
Baffled Bob 2 Baffled Bob 2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipw View Post
A few (seven) years back I was in a negotiation with one of the major health/civil service unions on a particular employment dispute. From memory, around half the workforce was unionised. After a few meetings and strikes, we reach an agreement for the union members - it was a reasonable deal for both sides and all seemed happy. I then made the fatal mistake of saying that we would also offer the same deal to the non unionised workforce. The union refused to agree and, whatever we agreed elsewhere, insisted that there must be a better deal for their unionised members - otherwise they would lose membership. So the non unionised workforce got a worse deal than we were prepared to offer.

Genuinely interested in CRs and SE25s view as to whether that behaviour was an abuse of power by the unions?
Personally I think that's an incentive to join a union.
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  #10493  
Old 12-05-2021, 02:35 PM
Philipw Philipw is offline
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Originally Posted by Baffled Bob 2 View Post
Personally I think that's an incentive to join a union.
Didn't work out that way. Union membership now lower than it was back then i believe.
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  #10494  
Old 12-05-2021, 02:37 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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I have some sympathy with the union there.
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  #10495  
Old 12-05-2021, 02:42 PM
Philipw Philipw is offline
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
I have some sympathy with the union there.
Interesting - must admit I found it bizarre that unions insisted that we must pay a mon unionised employee less than we were willing. Not sure whether it is still a two tier workforce
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  #10496  
Old 12-05-2021, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Philipw View Post
A few (seven) years back I was in a negotiation with one of the major health/civil service unions on a particular employment dispute. From memory, around half the workforce was unionised. After a few meetings and strikes, we reach an agreement for the union members - it was a reasonable deal for both sides and all seemed happy. I then made the fatal mistake of saying that we would also offer the same deal to the non unionised workforce. The union refused to agree and, whatever we agreed elsewhere, insisted that there must be a better deal for their unionised members - otherwise they would lose membership. So the non unionised workforce got a worse deal than we were prepared to offer.

Genuinely interested in CRs and SE25s view as to whether that behaviour was an abuse of power by the unions?
Here for all levels where the unions get involved in negotiation, everyone gets the same pay awards, unionised or not. Union membership is not just about pay.
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  #10497  
Old 12-05-2021, 02:50 PM
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Tony Blair unleashes stinging attack on ‘woke left’ and says Labour could cease to exist.

‘Keir seems sensible but not radical. He lacks a compelling economic message’
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  #10498  
Old 12-05-2021, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipw View Post
A few (seven) years back I was in a negotiation with one of the major health/civil service unions on a particular employment dispute. From memory, around half the workforce was unionised. After a few meetings and strikes, we reach an agreement for the union members - it was a reasonable deal for both sides and all seemed happy. I then made the fatal mistake of saying that we would also offer the same deal to the non unionised workforce. The union refused to agree and, whatever we agreed elsewhere, insisted that there must be a better deal for their unionised members - otherwise they would lose membership. So the non unionised workforce got a worse deal than we were prepared to offer.

Genuinely interested in CRs and SE25s view as to whether that behaviour was an abuse of power by the unions?
Not an abuse of power by the unions, but an abandonment of power (and integrity) by the employer.
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  #10499  
Old 12-05-2021, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
You’re assuming that people would vote for the same party in a PR system. PR tends to obliterate the voter stickiness of FPTP.
True but I find it hard to believe that many right wing voters would switch to left of centre parties.

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Old 12-05-2021, 03:09 PM
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Or maybe we are just all dreaming of fair treatment for workers and a just tax system. Given the way that a multinational once again (Amazon in this case) has just humiliated the EU and it seems it is okay for 44bn euros a year of sales to be booked through Luxembourg what chance do ordinary people stand. Maybe the courts now just decide everything anyway and we really don't matter. Politics feels as dispiriting as watching Palace did last night.
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