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  #4521  
Old 23-09-2021, 12:56 PM
Philipw Philipw is offline
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
You think MPS should have committed to backing whatever deal was negotiated before they had negotiated a deal? Why would anyone, let alone an MP, agree to back a deal before negotiations had begun?

Cameron didn't agree to back his deal until after he had made the deal.

"I hope and believe that together we can reach agreement on each of these four areas. If we can, I am ready to campaign with all my heart and soul to keep Britain inside a reformed European Union that continues to enhance the prosperity and security of all its Member States. "

I'm struggling with your reasoning here?
I don't think the analogy with 2015/16 is perfect but did Corbyn (or anyone in labour) say that if we can negotiate a reasonable deal we will campaign for it?

By Cameron saying what he did in 2015, it may have at least given the EU an incentive to give the UK as good a deal as possible. The EU stated that they did not want Brexit to happen so, with labour offering a free vote (with some of their front bench against it) had they won in 2019, it is hard to see why the EU would have made the deal as attractive as they would have been permitted by their key member states.

Anyway, we disagree which is fine
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  #4522  
Old 23-09-2021, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by weltklasse View Post
another excellent deal by a bunch of muppets.

Environment Secretary George Eustice said carbon dioxide prices would rise from 200 per tonne to 1,000. (this from the factory the taxpayer has supported.)

then he comes out with this delusion too.

Mr Eustice insisted that the rise in cost would not have a "significant impact" on food prices.
Seems extremely optimistic that a 500% increase won't have an impact.
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  #4523  
Old 23-09-2021, 03:07 PM
Hpalace Hpalace is offline
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Originally Posted by Philipw View Post
I don't think the analogy with 2015/16 is perfect but did Corbyn (or anyone in labour) say that if we can negotiate a reasonable deal we will campaign for it?

By Cameron saying what he did in 2015, it may have at least given the EU an incentive to give the UK as good a deal as possible. The EU stated that they did not want Brexit to happen so, with labour offering a free vote (with some of their front bench against it) had they won in 2019, it is hard to see why the EU would have made the deal as attractive as they would have been permitted by their key member states.

Anyway, we disagree which is fine
I am still surprised people see this through the lens of a deal or a negotiation; like haggling over a car. It was never viewed like this by the EU. It was a case of pick a rung on the ladder or a space between 2 rungs. The only deal was re money which was worked out early and even that was a capitulation.

Labour would not have been able to get a better or worse rung depending on the second referendum. The rungs are the rungs. Join the customs union you get Turkey. Give the ECJ authority and regulatory autonomy you get Ukraine etc etc.

The fact that the public, through an almost childlike lens, see or think 'there was a deal to be had' is simply a creation of the daily mail/the sun and the gullibility of the population. Oh and Davis telling everyone there was a deal and we had a magic card that he wouldn't reveal but then forgot to ever show.


Last edited by Hpalace; 23-09-2021 at 03:14 PM.
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  #4524  
Old 23-09-2021, 04:57 PM
mte103 mte103 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
Look, the entire thing is the making of the Tories, where they impoverished so many and made things so shit that it opened the door for spivs like Farage to exploit, and ultimately Johnson, King of Con-artists. 49% of the people are below average IQ, and you only needed 35-40% of them to turn out and do the bidding.

If you voted for it or voted for Johnson, it's YOUR FAULT for being duped.
Yes.

As fascinating as revisiting the history is, the bottom line is the information was out there to make an informed choice and everyone who voted for Brexit and the Tories is to blame for all of this.
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  #4525  
Old 23-09-2021, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
I am still surprised people see this through the lens of a deal or a negotiation; like haggling over a car. It was never viewed like this by the EU. It was a case of pick a rung on the ladder or a space between 2 rungs. The only deal was re money which was worked out early and even that was a capitulation.

Labour would not have been able to get a better or worse rung depending on the second referendum. The rungs are the rungs. Join the customs union you get Turkey. Give the ECJ authority and regulatory autonomy you get Ukraine etc etc.

The fact that the public, through an almost childlike lens, see or think 'there was a deal to be had' is simply a creation of the daily mail/the sun and the gullibility of the population. Oh and Davis telling everyone there was a deal and we had a magic card that he wouldn't reveal but then forgot to ever show.

Davis did turn up for a cup of tea sadly EU turned up for an exit strategy for UK.

The rungs are straightforward and we did have choices
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