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  #129941  
Old 03-05-2021, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
With the 2009 procurement it actually also went really well, well it did until it wasnít needed and then it was criticized as a waste of money. Again the Eu joint procurement of vaccine went badly.

Donít forget that Matt Hancock also watched Ďpandemicí and it helped him formulate the plan of securing lots of vaccine early and ahead of the pack. Thanks goes to Matt Damon I guess.
Iirc the 2009 vaccines gave a load of people narcolepsy.
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  #129942  
Old 03-05-2021, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bigend1 View Post
I honestly believed it was a big factor tbh. I am far from an expert of course. I get that it was always possible to go your own way in the EU with it but does that mean we would have?

The UK was one of the EU's main players.. For those nations, France, Germany and the UK it would have been considered essential to be aligned in approach. I suspect we might have struggled to find the political will to do our own thing but perhaps might have had more influence in the contracts and roll out.

Either way, dont any of you dare try to put me into the brexiteer gang!!! Brexit has cost me more than 99% of you i am sure... I just always try to look at all angles to avoid my own bitter bias!

Whatever the factors thank **** we got the vaccinations done so well. We have a head start on the EU for recovery. Hopefully we can put the bitterness behind us, make the most of the circumstances and adapt to our new world in a positive way. We cant change the vote now. Hopefully we never put such important decisions in the hands of the uneducated, ignorant and easily led masses again.
Dam must spread etc

Great post
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  #129943  
Old 03-05-2021, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
In 2009 the uk were big players in the Eu and we were implored to undertake a joint vaccine approach to that emerging pandemic. We said no and went it alone. The only evidence there is (2009) suggests that the uk would have gone it alone. There is no evidence to suggest we would have jointly procured vaccine.
Not sure how there is there supposed to be evidence of something that never happened? Of course, we could legally have procured outside of the EU systems but comparisons with the previous pandemic (what ever that was) are in my opinion irrelevant. Covid was and is on a different scale by a massive multiple - with previously unheard of lockdowns already having happened by they time the vaccines were procured. Even had we procured separately, I really struggle to believe that we could have got away with sticking with the massively advantageous (some may say selfish) legal position. I agree with Bigend1 and just don't think we could have held the same line had we still been in the EU. I also agree with him that, so far, everything else has been negative.
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  #129944  
Old 03-05-2021, 03:29 PM
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I cancelled my golf club membership and I would save almost 14000 pounds in 10 years time whilst Tim nice but Dim who is still in the club will be paying loads of dosh.

I canít play golf and I will have to go on a day trip pay premium for the pleasure and need to fill in loads of forms whilst Tim nice but dim can roll up whatever time he wants and play when he wants etc

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Old 03-05-2021, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Philipw View Post
Not sure how there is there supposed to be evidence of something that never happened? Of course, we could legally have procured outside of the EU systems but comparisons with the previous pandemic (what ever that was) are in my opinion irrelevant. Covid was and is on a different scale by a massive multiple - with previously unheard of lockdowns already having happened by they time the vaccines were procured. Even had we procured separately, I really struggle to believe that we could have got away with sticking with the massively advantageous (some may say selfish) legal position. I agree with Bigend1 and just don't think we could have held the same line had we still been in the EU. I also agree with him that, so far, everything else has been negative.
Not sure about that. When swine flu first hit the scene it was pretty feared especially as articles like this To view the link you have to Register or Login. Even a couple of months later we had this To view the link you have to Register or Login. So by the time we had purchased our vaccines we had done so after rejecting Eu requests to joint procure in the face of what was perceived to be a big threat. That it wasnít is neither here nor there.

We also have this To view the link you have to Register or Login. A collective pat on the back for vaccine procurement

And this

ďThe political troubles for the EU over the delayed roll out of vaccines across the European continent are far from over. Yet, the current story was foretold with the EU handling of the Swine Flu outbreak in 2009 and everything that did not happen afterwards. At the time, some Member States, particularly also the UK, hoarded vaccines, which caused a panicked EU response [[1]]. In the beginning, this left some eastern European Countries with no vaccines and other countries with less. Due to this lack of EU coordination and solidarity among the Member States, many of them paid too much for vaccines they ended up not need. To ameliorate these failures, the EU created an ad-hoc and voluntary system for vaccine distribution, so that Member States could offload Swine Flu vaccines that were bought in excess [[2]].
After the Swine flu outbreak, the EU floated the idea of more power and capacity to jointly procure vaccines in cases of health emergencies to the Member States. Not only for a voluntary system, but a system where they could have had the centralized power to determine roll out schedules based on medical need. But the Member States only wanted to agree to a voluntary system [[3]], where they themselves in the end would have the final say over the number of vaccines to purchase and the actual funding to contribute. The explanation for this is that health is a classical welfare state issue, and to centralize powers in this area in the EU, would diminish the power of the Member States in an area where national elections can be lost or won.ď

On the flip side we have the argument that the uk would have gone against the principles it praised itself for the last time, the uk who were always on the edge of the Eu would have voluntarily given the Eu power over the uk welfare state at a time of national crisis despite refusing to give the Eu such power post the 2009 pandemic.

If you want to believe it by all means believe it. It just seems a bit pink unicorny to me given the findings of the last pandemic enquiry showed the uk going it alone on vaccinations was a massive win, we refused joint procurement then and we refused to hand over procurement post the last pandemic. Seems a bit far fetched when the next pandemic popped up that we would say ďyou everything know what we did last time which was deemed a success? **** it, letís do the exact opposite this time.Ē
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  #129946  
Old 03-05-2021, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
Not sure about that. When swine flu first hit the scene it was pretty feared especially as articles like this To view the link you have to Register or Login. Even a couple of months later we had this To view the link you have to Register or Login. So by the time we had purchased our vaccines we had done so after rejecting Eu requests to joint procure in the face of what was perceived to be a big threat. That it wasn’t is neither here nor there.

We also have this To view the link you have to Register or Login. A collective pat on the back for vaccine procurement

And this

“The political troubles for the EU over the delayed roll out of vaccines across the European continent are far from over. Yet, the current story was foretold with the EU handling of the Swine Flu outbreak in 2009 and everything that did not happen afterwards. At the time, some Member States, particularly also the UK, hoarded vaccines, which caused a panicked EU response [[1]]. In the beginning, this left some eastern European Countries with no vaccines and other countries with less. Due to this lack of EU coordination and solidarity among the Member States, many of them paid too much for vaccines they ended up not need. To ameliorate these failures, the EU created an ad-hoc and voluntary system for vaccine distribution, so that Member States could offload Swine Flu vaccines that were bought in excess [[2]].
After the Swine flu outbreak, the EU floated the idea of more power and capacity to jointly procure vaccines in cases of health emergencies to the Member States. Not only for a voluntary system, but a system where they could have had the centralized power to determine roll out schedules based on medical need. But the Member States only wanted to agree to a voluntary system [[3]], where they themselves in the end would have the final say over the number of vaccines to purchase and the actual funding to contribute. The explanation for this is that health is a classical welfare state issue, and to centralize powers in this area in the EU, would diminish the power of the Member States in an area where national elections can be lost or won.“

On the flip side we have the argument that the uk would have gone against the principles it praised itself for the last time, the uk who were always on the edge of the Eu would have voluntarily given the Eu power over the uk welfare state at a time of national crisis despite refusing to give the Eu such power post the 2009 pandemic.

If you want to believe it by all means believe it. It just seems a bit pink unicorny to me given the findings of the last pandemic enquiry showed the uk going it alone on vaccinations was a massive win, we refused joint procurement then and we refused to hand over procurement post the last pandemic. Seems a bit far fetched when the next pandemic popped up that we would say “you everything know what we did last time which was deemed a success? **** it, let’s do the exact opposite this time.”
You are seriously comparing swine flu with covid? Remind me of the lockdowns, mass European deaths, economic catastrophe and the vaccine shortages? These had already had happened by the time the contracts had been signed, let alone vaccines produced and shortages. To draw a parallel with swine flu is in my opinion pretty far fetched.

Last edited by Philipw; 03-05-2021 at 04:12 PM.
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  #129947  
Old 03-05-2021, 04:17 PM
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Wibble
It is I agree

The wibble factor in par with the article you posted, where the facist is comparing money saved by not paying to a club membership over number of years
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Old 03-05-2021, 05:00 PM
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You are seriously comparing swine flu with covid? Remind me of the lockdowns, mass European deaths, economic catastrophe and the vaccine shortages? These had already had happened by the time the contracts had been signed, let alone vaccines produced and shortages. To draw a parallel with swine flu is in my opinion pretty far fetched.
Itís the only comparison available and weíre talking about vaccine procurement. The last time we had to react quickly and buy enough vaccines for the whole of the uk (twice) we went it alone and purchased them quickly. Of course swine flu was then much ado about nothing but it wasnít when we made the purchases.

Yes we all know swine flu was but a warning now but we didnít then. We rushed to buy vaccine (alone), and we latterly praised ourselves for doing so as we got it early and in plentiful supply. The fact we didnít need it, or that swine flu was not as bad as expected really isnít the point.
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  #129949  
Old 03-05-2021, 05:28 PM
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It’s not so much that you acted early or were generally brilliant rather than your contract was more watertight legally with AZ. Swap the legal technicalities and they would have been welching on the UK instead.
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Old 03-05-2021, 06:13 PM
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Itís the only comparison available and weíre talking about vaccine procurement. The last time we had to react quickly and buy enough vaccines for the whole of the uk (twice) we went it alone and purchased them quickly. Of course swine flu was then much ado about nothing but it wasnít when we made the purchases.

Yes we all know swine flu was but a warning now but we didnít then. We rushed to buy vaccine (alone), and we latterly praised ourselves for doing so as we got it early and in plentiful supply. The fact we didnít need it, or that swine flu was not as bad as expected really isnít the point.
I am not disagreeing with you that we might have gone alone at the contract stage had we still been the EU (but given the horrendous covid conditions at the time of contracting I am sceptical). However, what was very different to swine flu, was the vaccine shortages that took place when it was deemed critical to lives being saved and economic recovery. I just don't think we could have held our "we'll keep all our legally contracted vaccines and share none" line had we still been in the EU. You disagree - that's fine.
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Old 03-05-2021, 06:25 PM
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I am not disagreeing with you that we might have gone alone at the contract stage had we still been the EU (but given the horrendous covid conditions at the time of contracting I am sceptical). However, what was very different to swine flu, was the vaccine shortages that took place when it was deemed critical to lives being saved and economic recovery. I just don't think we could have held our "we'll keep all our legally contracted vaccines and share none" line had we still been in the EU. You disagree - that's fine.
Did European countries share PPE?

Talking of PPE I do wonder whether the procurement fiasco across Europe (including the UK of course) heavily influenced the subsequent vaccine procurement programme.

All speculation and impossible to know.

What we can say is, despite having the most incompetent, corrupt, reckless and I would say criminal government of last the two centuries, they got the vaccine procurement decisions right and deserve praise for doing so.
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Old 03-05-2021, 06:27 PM
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Well last autumn we did harvest lots of fruit & veg as it happens despite your doubting. Best experience picking apples in a new forest orchard.

As an aside 5.4 million EU citizens have now applied to remain in the UK via the settlement scheme, glad to see plenty of EU citizens have faith in the UK.
You utter ****.
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Old 03-05-2021, 06:33 PM
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Itís the only comparison available and weíre talking about vaccine procurement. The last time we had to react quickly and buy enough vaccines for the whole of the uk (twice) we went it alone and purchased them quickly. Of course swine flu was then much ado about nothing but it wasnít when we made the purchases.

Yes we all know swine flu was but a warning now but we didnít then. We rushed to buy vaccine (alone), and we latterly praised ourselves for doing so as we got it early and in plentiful supply. The fact we didnít need it, or that swine flu was not as bad as expected really isnít the point.
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Old 03-05-2021, 06:52 PM
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Did European countries share PPE?

Talking of PPE I do wonder whether the procurement fiasco across Europe (including the UK of course) heavily influenced the subsequent vaccine procurement programme.

All speculation and impossible to know.

What we can say is, despite having the most incompetent, corrupt, reckless and I would say criminal government of last the two centuries, they got the vaccine procurement decisions right and deserve praise for doing so.
Indeed AJ, but it seems like the Tory/Brexit shills on here are somehow claiming the vaccine procurement validates their vote. But what they should consider as a consequence of their vote is that the UK has the worst health and economic outcome in Europe. Their leader went on national TV to tell us to take it on the chin and let it go through the herd and then allegedly said he would let dead bodies pile up, do they take credit for this too?

No, but they cling on to an entirely false narrative that as a result of Brexit we were able or weren't pressured into joining the EU procurement. It's a lie, we were part of the EU when we decided to not join, and was consistent with the procurement we had always chosen to do. They are just scrambling for any angle to justify what they did, like any spivvy shill does

Compare this to NicolaSturgeon, rightly giving the vaccine credit to the NHS and backing this up with a £500 bonus and a meaningful rise is salary to thank them for all their efforts during the pandemic, compared to the useless blond mop in Downing street, more concerned with picking expensive wallpaper, corruptly handing out taxpayer money for contracts to his cronys and giving the nurses a below inflation rise and a clap.

Anyone notice how quiet the taxpayers alliance have gone with the £240billion spent on a shit sandwich brexit while BJ runs up more debt than any peacetime leader
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Old 03-05-2021, 07:03 PM
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Indeed AJ, but it seems like the Tory/Brexit shills on here are somehow claiming the vaccine procurement validates their vote. But what they should consider as a consequence of their vote is that the UK has the worst health and economic outcome in Europe. Their leader went on national TV to tell us to take it on the chin and let it go through the herd and then allegedly said he would let dead bodies pile up, do they take credit for this too?

No, but they cling on to an entirely false narrative that as a result of Brexit we were able or weren't pressured into joining the EU procurement. It's a lie, we were part of the EU when we decided to not join, and was consistent with the procurement we had always chosen to do. They are just scrambling for any angle to justify what they did, like any spivvy shill does

Compare this to NicolaSturgeon, rightly giving the vaccine credit to the NHS and backing this up with a £500 bonus and a meaningful rise is salary to thank them for all their efforts during the pandemic, compared to the useless blond mop in Downing street, more concerned with picking expensive wallpaper, corruptly handing out taxpayer money for contracts to his cronys and giving the nurses a below inflation rise and a clap.

Anyone notice how quiet the taxpayers alliance have gone with the £240billion spent on a shit sandwich brexit while BJ runs up more debt than any peacetime leader
Good post JBG
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Old 03-05-2021, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnybegood View Post
Indeed AJ, but it seems like the Tory/Brexit shills on here are somehow claiming the vaccine procurement validates their vote. But what they should consider as a consequence of their vote is that the UK has the worst health and economic outcome in Europe. Their leader went on national TV to tell us to take it on the chin and let it go through the herd and then allegedly said he would let dead bodies pile up, do they take credit for this too?

No, but they cling on to an entirely false narrative that as a result of Brexit we were able or weren't pressured into joining the EU procurement. It's a lie, we were part of the EU when we decided to not join, and was consistent with the procurement we had always chosen to do. They are just scrambling for any angle to justify what they did, like any spivvy shill does

Compare this to NicolaSturgeon, rightly giving the vaccine credit to the NHS and backing this up with a £500 bonus and a meaningful rise is salary to thank them for all their efforts during the pandemic, compared to the useless blond mop in Downing street, more concerned with picking expensive wallpaper, corruptly handing out taxpayer money for contracts to his cronys and giving the nurses a below inflation rise and a clap.

Anyone notice how quiet the taxpayers alliance have gone with the £240billion spent on a shit sandwich brexit while BJ runs up more debt than any peacetime leader
Agreed. Excellent post.
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Old 03-05-2021, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnybegood View Post
Indeed AJ, but it seems like the Tory/Brexit shills on here are somehow claiming the vaccine procurement validates their vote. But what they should consider as a consequence of their vote is that the UK has the worst health and economic outcome in Europe. Their leader went on national TV to tell us to take it on the chin and let it go through the herd and then allegedly said he would let dead bodies pile up, do they take credit for this too?

No, but they cling on to an entirely false narrative that as a result of Brexit we were able or weren't pressured into joining the EU procurement. It's a lie, we were part of the EU when we decided to not join, and was consistent with the procurement we had always chosen to do. They are just scrambling for any angle to justify what they did, like any spivvy shill does
I'm not a Tory/Brexit shill. Brexit is still the weirdest act of national self harm since the war.

But I really don't believe we would have been in this excellent position regarding vaccines if we were still members. We'll never know for sure of course.
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Old 03-05-2021, 07:12 PM
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Call an ambulance.

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Old 03-05-2021, 07:13 PM
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No he doesn't. He just needs to re-attach the one he's just had handed to him


Best done in an ambulance at the very least.
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Old 03-05-2021, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Baffled Bob 2 View Post
I'm not a Tory/Brexit shill. Brexit is still the weirdest act of national self harm since the war.

But I really don't believe we would have been in this excellent position regarding vaccines if we were still members. We'll never know for sure of course.
The real question is, despite the uncertainty, are you still prepared to give Johnson and his acolytes the benefit of the doubt?
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