Home | Forums | Gallery | Twitter
 
CPFC BBS  

Go Back   CPFC BBS Ľ Off Topic Ľ The Politics Forum

Notices

The Politics Forum Discussions that are wholly or mainly concerned with UK politics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #201  
Old 09-05-2021, 09:29 AM
SE25 exile's Avatar
SE25 exile SE25 exile is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: on a small island with too many small minds.
Posts: 24,929
Rep Power: 21474858
SE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Butler View Post
What about the democratic rights of those who voted in a democratic once in a generation referendum that chose to stay with the UK?
Scotland voted on the assumption that government wouldn't be daft enough to facilitate the leaving of the EU. Scotland is pro EU, and so consequently, Brexit is a game changer for them, hence the need to look at independence again.

Quote:
Each time you have a Scottish election, are the separatists going to hold the UK and half its own people to ransom when it does not get what it wants with a referendum?
Depends on what is contained in the SNP manifesto, and if the electorate vote for it. Its called a democratic right. On this occasion, it is blatantly obvious that the Scottish people want to have one. Those against, as before are perfectly entitled to campaign against independence, and they have in my view, enough ammunition to prevent it.

Quote:
I would say you have had your referendum and the people have chosen to stay and you cannot be doing this every 5 minutes.
Every five minutes is a bit extreme Les agreed, but a seven year plus gap is reasonable, especially under post Brexit circumstances.
Reply With Quote
  #202  
Old 09-05-2021, 09:33 AM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 21,846
Rep Power: 21474853
cockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is here
The argument of how often it should be is surely up to the Scottish people, and no one else. People have general elections every few years which can lead to seismic changes.

There has been huge changes in the last seven years and the vote for pro independence parties is clearly enough to warrant a referendum.
Reply With Quote
  #203  
Old 09-05-2021, 09:36 AM
ExiledStirling's Avatar
ExiledStirling ExiledStirling is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Thurso in the Highlands
Age: 60
Posts: 39,067
Rep Power: 21474848
ExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by RazorsEdge View Post
I am saying yes to the democratic right for indyref2. Period.

I am also questioning how or what is it is based on?

The argument SNP won a majority is a reason?

Plus how many times do we need to do it? Once a generation? Once every time SNP gets a majority?

I for one do not want Scotland to leave UK, but I also donít want the Scots not to have an debate or right to vote on it which I think is fair and democratic and every option should be presented to the people so they know the good and bad of leaving and donít get screwed over thanks to some self centred individuals who have their own agenda
Yes given the way our democracy works 49% of votes were placed on the two parties who had an indyref2 in their manifestos. As I have already stated, seeing as the SNP won 62 of the 73 constituency seats up here that would equate to a majority of 448 (552 seats) in Westminster!! I think that is justification for an indyref2 no?

That does not mean Scotland goes Independent in anyway whatsoever and all the arguments raised here and elsewhere that argue the folly of going independent get raised and countered in the build up to the vote and then the Scottish people decide. It is called democracy.
__________________
ENGLAND - The proud nation that gifted to the whole of the UK a corrupt government.

Vision for Bangladesh. Please donate if you can

www.visionforbangladesh.org
Reply With Quote
  #204  
Old 09-05-2021, 09:48 AM
ExiledStirling's Avatar
ExiledStirling ExiledStirling is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Thurso in the Highlands
Age: 60
Posts: 39,067
Rep Power: 21474848
ExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipw View Post
We may be on different wave lengths - and this isn't an anti Scottish thing as I have as much scottish blood as English, my daughter spent 5 years at a Scottish uni and I generally love the place. I just don't believe the democratic position is as clear as being made out (sturgeon just claiming a landslide win on the Marr show when she hasn't eve n got a majority??) and, no, even if it was 50.1% I don't think that justifies an irreversible referendum.

I might have different view if it was 100% guaranteed that the EU would very quickly readmit Scotland, it was clear to all voters that taxes would have to rise substantially to balance the books and polls indicated that [60]% in favour, i.e. not just a moment in time when the polls are marginally in favour of independence.
With respect you need to understand the electoral system up here to realise how different it is to the UK general elections.

Be in no doubt that getting a 47.7% share of the vote and falling just one short of a majority in an electoral system designed to make a majority an almost impossibility (I am in favour of this BTW) is a fantastic result for the SNP.

It is why I stated their result would equate to a 448 majority in Westminster. I just do not understand how anyone faced with these facts argues against the will of the Scottish people being honoured. We after all agree that the Tories have a democratic right to govern even though they had a 43.6% share of the vote.
__________________
ENGLAND - The proud nation that gifted to the whole of the UK a corrupt government.

Vision for Bangladesh. Please donate if you can

www.visionforbangladesh.org
Reply With Quote
  #205  
Old 09-05-2021, 09:53 AM
legaleagle2 legaleagle2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,086
Rep Power: 21474840
legaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExiledStirling View Post
With respect you need to understand the electoral system up here to realise how different it is to the UK general elections.

Be in no doubt that getting a 47.7% share of the vote and falling just one short of a majority in an electoral system designed to make a majority an almost impossibility (I am in favour of this BTW) is a fantastic result for the SNP.

It is why I stated their result would equate to a 448 majority in Westminster. I just do not understand how anyone faced with these facts argues against the will of the Scottish people being honoured. We after all agree that the Tories have a democratic right to govern even though they had a 43.6% share of the vote.
There is a difference between a right to govern......and claiming a figure of unfer 50% as a mandate for a vote for constitutional change...after all remainers in the UK were 49%...
Reply With Quote
  #206  
Old 09-05-2021, 10:04 AM
Philipw Philipw is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,596
Rep Power: 10525239
Philipw came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPhilipw came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPhilipw came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPhilipw came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPhilipw came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPhilipw came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPhilipw came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPhilipw came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPhilipw came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPhilipw came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPhilipw came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by legaleagle2 View Post
There is a difference between a right to govern......and claiming a figure of unfer 50% as a mandate for a vote for constitutional change...after all remainers in the UK were 49%...
Thats the point i’m badly trying to make
Reply With Quote
  #207  
Old 09-05-2021, 10:13 AM
ExiledStirling's Avatar
ExiledStirling ExiledStirling is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Thurso in the Highlands
Age: 60
Posts: 39,067
Rep Power: 21474848
ExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by legaleagle2 View Post
There is a difference between a right to govern......and claiming a figure of unfer 50% as a mandate for a vote for constitutional change...after all remainers in the UK were 49%...
Because it is how democracy works. Both the Greens and the SNP made manifesto commitments for indyref2 and they are choosing to stick by it.

This is an argument for holding indyref2 not an argument for Independence itself. Democracy surely dictates that Johnson should respect the will of the Scottish people.
__________________
ENGLAND - The proud nation that gifted to the whole of the UK a corrupt government.

Vision for Bangladesh. Please donate if you can

www.visionforbangladesh.org
Reply With Quote
  #208  
Old 09-05-2021, 10:31 AM
French Eagle's Avatar
French Eagle French Eagle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Brittany, West France/West Norwood London
Age: 67
Posts: 3,277
Rep Power: 21474855
French Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExiledStirling View Post
Because it is how democracy works. Both the Greens and the SNP made manifesto commitments for indyref2 and they are choosing to stick by it.

This is an argument for holding indyref2 not an argument for Independence itself. Democracy surely dictates that Johnson should respect the will of the Scottish people.
So, in your opinion Exiled, will the Scots vote for independence ?
__________________
#46 Allez Vale
Reply With Quote
  #209  
Old 09-05-2021, 10:41 AM
ExiledStirling's Avatar
ExiledStirling ExiledStirling is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Thurso in the Highlands
Age: 60
Posts: 39,067
Rep Power: 21474848
ExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by French Eagle View Post
So, in your opinion Exiled, will the Scots vote for independence ?
God knows it hangs in the balance and if it happens the vote is at least two years away.

I await Little Al to pop along and say Scotland will not vote for independence 🙂
__________________
ENGLAND - The proud nation that gifted to the whole of the UK a corrupt government.

Vision for Bangladesh. Please donate if you can

www.visionforbangladesh.org
Reply With Quote
  #210  
Old 09-05-2021, 10:47 AM
little al's Avatar
little al little al is offline
XXVII
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Aberdeen
Age: 52
Posts: 45,347
Rep Power: 21474858
little al Sam the man is herelittle al Sam the man is herelittle al Sam the man is herelittle al Sam the man is herelittle al Sam the man is herelittle al Sam the man is herelittle al Sam the man is herelittle al Sam the man is herelittle al Sam the man is herelittle al Sam the man is herelittle al Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExiledStirling View Post
God knows it hangs in the balance and if it happens the vote is at least two years away.

I await Little Al to pop along and say Scotland will not vote for independence 🙂
Here I am, and no they won't.
__________________
ACAE
Reply With Quote
  #211  
Old 09-05-2021, 10:48 AM
French Eagle's Avatar
French Eagle French Eagle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Brittany, West France/West Norwood London
Age: 67
Posts: 3,277
Rep Power: 21474855
French Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is hereFrench Eagle Sam the man is here
Okydoky lads .
__________________
#46 Allez Vale
Reply With Quote
  #212  
Old 09-05-2021, 10:52 AM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 25,612
Rep Power: 21474851
Nth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by spt1978 View Post
To view the link you have to Register or Login

Unless I am missing something, the Scottish government own figures point towards a net fiscal deficit of 9.5% in 2019.
I read 24% for last year in a recent independent study. Austerity on steroids will be coming by the look of it.
__________________
I only have one user name
Reply With Quote
  #213  
Old 09-05-2021, 11:01 AM
spt1978's Avatar
spt1978 spt1978 is offline
Anything from Milan?
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Age: 42
Posts: 23,334
Rep Power: 21474857
spt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
I read 24% for last year in a recent independent study. Austerity on steroids will be coming by the look of it.
24% probably includes money spent fighting covid I assume.
Reply With Quote
  #214  
Old 09-05-2021, 11:05 AM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 25,612
Rep Power: 21474851
Nth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by spt1978 View Post
24% probably includes money spent fighting covid I assume.
Yes compared to 14% in the UK. Going to need years of high growth and tax increases plus possibly cuts for all of us. Not a good time for Scotland to lose NatWest.
__________________
I only have one user name
Reply With Quote
  #215  
Old 09-05-2021, 11:13 AM
ExiledStirling's Avatar
ExiledStirling ExiledStirling is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Thurso in the Highlands
Age: 60
Posts: 39,067
Rep Power: 21474848
ExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by little al View Post
Here I am, and no they won't.
__________________
ENGLAND - The proud nation that gifted to the whole of the UK a corrupt government.

Vision for Bangladesh. Please donate if you can

www.visionforbangladesh.org
Reply With Quote
  #216  
Old 09-05-2021, 11:32 AM
spt1978's Avatar
spt1978 spt1978 is offline
Anything from Milan?
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Age: 42
Posts: 23,334
Rep Power: 21474857
spt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Yes compared to 14% in the UK. Going to need years of high growth and tax increases plus possibly cuts for all of us. Not a good time for Scotland to lose NatWest.
NatWest is not that big anymore anyway, pre the GFC It had one of the largest balance sheets in the world, this has now been shrunk considerably as they de-risked. This is probably good for Scotland as any government is effectively back-stopping banks headquarters within their area. Wonder where is leaves people who have mortgages with English banks, no idea of the implications of having a cross border mortgage. Minor I assume but for banks having to chase bad debts through a foreign court feels like a pain in the ass. Mortgages are not really that profitable to be setting up need operations and walking a new banking regulator through everything.

Government ownership is down from 82% to 62% since the last referendum.

Last edited by spt1978; 09-05-2021 at 11:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #217  
Old 09-05-2021, 11:43 AM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 25,612
Rep Power: 21474851
Nth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is hereNth Kent Eagle Sam the man is here
Still £800bn of assets though and the hq complex near Edinburgh airport was huge last time I went past on the bus from the airport to the Gyle. A lot of big jobs at risk.
__________________
I only have one user name
Reply With Quote
  #218  
Old 09-05-2021, 11:47 AM
spt1978's Avatar
spt1978 spt1978 is offline
Anything from Milan?
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Age: 42
Posts: 23,334
Rep Power: 21474857
spt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is herespt1978 Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Still £800bn of assets though and the hq complex near Edinburgh airport was huge last time I went past on the bus from the airport to the Gyle. A lot of big jobs at risk.
Indeed, Still have the big office, they are actually moving a lot of jobs from London to Edinburgh. Or they were pre covid.
Reply With Quote
  #219  
Old 09-05-2021, 12:41 PM
legaleagle2 legaleagle2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,086
Rep Power: 21474840
legaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is herelegaleagle2 Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExiledStirling View Post
Because it is how democracy works. Both the Greens and the SNP made manifesto commitments for indyref2 and they are choosing to stick by it.

This is an argument for holding indyref2 not an argument for Independence itself. Democracy surely dictates that Johnson should respect the will of the Scottish people.
If 49% voted for pro indy parties,presumably 51% didn't,which rather undermines the majority will of the people argument
Reply With Quote
  #220  
Old 09-05-2021, 12:51 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is offline
Freakish nipples akimbo
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Posts: 53,980
Rep Power: 21474857
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
I see the argument for another referendum. But surely a super majority and an agreement to stick with the result for a generation has to be agreed, if so?
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.