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Memory Lane Memories and nostalgia about Crystal Palace F.C

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  #41  
Old 15-12-2020, 02:38 PM
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Fabulous photos JE. A couple of interesting points. Slavia Prague still wear the same kit today and note the Palace keeper, Josh Johnson, was wearing the same kit as everyone else. In those days keepers didn't have a separate kit, although they did sometimes wear a flat cap to distinguish themselves from the other players. Slavia Prague have their own museum and I think they would be very interested in these photos. I bet they haven't got anything older, or probably as old.

07-08 was a strange season for us. We'd lost most of our prolific forward line to Football and Scottish League first division clubs at the start of the season. The previous year we had had a stellar Cup run which included beating the previous year's finalists and then First Division leaders, Newcastle, who hadn't lost at home all season. As a relatively new professional club it stunned the football world at the time and inevitably our best players were poached. We also parted company with our first professional manager, Jack Robson, that season. He would eventually go on to become Manchester United's first full time manager.

Palace did reasonably well financially in 07-08 with crowds increasing, no doubt on the back of our Cup fame, and that allowed us to make our first overseas tour.

The following season Palace would have another great Cup run, knocking out holders Wolves on the way. In that match Josh Johnson was knocked out cold three times but carried on until the end of the game! They were tough guys then!
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  #42  
Old 16-12-2020, 01:02 AM
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Thanks Olly! Interesting that the earlier West Ham badges seem to be red and blue too and in fact they also took several years to have their colours referred to as claret and blue.

I thought of another way of contrasting the colours of the old Palace kit. We played away to Man City in the FA Cup in 1926 - here’s an action shot:



Bearing in mind Man City play in light blue, I thought it would make an interesting contrast against Palace’s ‘blue’ - I think you can see it more clearly here in this old British Pathe clip of the tie (you may have to look through your fingers at the score though!)

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Old 16-12-2020, 06:48 AM
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Here is another detailed description of club colours in the Athletic News dated 6th November 1911.

You can see that the different shades of blue are emphasised in this account - interestingly, West Ham are noted as Red and Pale Blue st this point in time.

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Old 20-12-2020, 06:30 PM
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Once again some fascinating photos and other memorabilia for our club, looking at the photos it would appear that the sleeves are are a darker shade of light blue (or lighter shade of blue) definately not a royal blue

Interesting point about the goalies kits peter, do you know when teams started to make the change to seperate goalies kits ?
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  #45  
Old 24-12-2020, 12:37 PM
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Yes, Olly. To help referees the F.A. changed the rules requiring all goalkeepers to wear a different shirt to their teams in 1909. Initially they had to be either scarlet or royal blue. Green was added as an option in 1912 and eventually green became the uniform colour of all keepers.

Re the Palace colours, along the way I picked up a piece of the original interior plasterwork of the Palace (attached) which I think would be a pretty good match for the cardinal red and blue that our 1905 club chose at its colours.

So far, I haven't come up with any other compelling reason why our 1861 amateur club chose blue and white, other than they were the dominant external colours of the Palace and, when we turned professional in 1905, we chose the dominant internal colours of cardinal red and blue.
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  #46  
Old 25-12-2020, 01:00 PM
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Once again thanks for your imput Peter and everybody really

Out of interest as we know the amateur cpfc's colours were listed in handbooks as blue and white, did they ever differentiate (shade description wise) between other early clubs who may have played in light blue ?
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  #47  
Old 25-12-2020, 03:43 PM
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The 'knickerbockers' (shorts) were certainly 'blue serge'
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  #48  
Old 26-12-2020, 10:15 AM
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The 'knickerbockers' (shorts) were certainly 'blue serge'
Hi
Was that the type of material or colour ?
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  #49  
Old 26-12-2020, 12:43 PM
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Once again thanks for your imput Peter and everybody really

Out of interest as we know the amateur cpfc's colours were listed in handbooks as blue and white, did they ever differentiate (shade description wise) between other early clubs who may have played in light blue ?
The main source of information on team colours in those days was Charles Alcock's highly respected Football Annual and the details were provided, usually annually, by each club's Secretary. So, the detailed description of the finer points of each team's colours was down to them.

The Football Annual was sanctioned by the F.A. and Alcock was the F.A.'s Secretary so it was as near an official F.A. publication as you could get. We do have the added knowledge that Charles Alcock played for the Palace so he would have had first hand knowledge of the club's colours and he never described them as anything other than just blue and white.

As mentioned, my view is that we copied the external blue and white colours of the Crystal Palace itself (attached) as they would have been the colours that visitors would have associated with the Palace.
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  #50  
Old 26-12-2020, 07:41 PM
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The truth is nobody actually has conclusive proof of what the CP1861 kit actually was or if it changed over the 14 years or so between early 1862 and late 1875 when we have reports of the club’s games.

We know that the earliest clubs were probably a bit haphazard with kit and you can see from many of the earliest pictures, many players don’t have identical kits in the same team line ups.

You have to bear in mind that football was in it’s infancy as a sport and none of the equipment was standard at all, different sized pitches, goals, laws of the game changing regularly until well after CP1861 stopped playing.

There seem to be no definitive reports of the kit except ‘blue and white shirts with blue serge (dark blue) knickerbockers (shorts, such as they were 160 years ago!).

The earliest clubs did seem to favour hoops. We know Palace’s earliest rivals, Barnes and Civil Service, both wore hooped shirts, Forest FC, who went on to become the famous all conquering Wanderers FC that several CP1861 players also played for, wore very narrow red and white pin stripes as Forest, but a very colourful red, gold and black hooped shirt as the Wanderers.

It does seem the majority of clubs that wore ‘halved’ or ‘quartered’ shirts were mainly after 1875, when CP1861 ceased playing.

The Victorians were quite descriptive of most events, but ‘light blue’ never appears in any report of the CP1861 kit, although other teams do have alternative descriptions of blue, so I’m not inclined to think the kit was the light blue and white halves put forward in the ‘1861 Claim’ media produced recently.

Here is a general summary of Victorian kits produced on the great Historical Kit site:

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You may note the majority of clubs from around CP1861s era wore either plain shirts, hoops or stripes, the halves and quarters coming in largely at later dates.
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  #51  
Old 26-12-2020, 08:15 PM
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Hi
Was that the type of material or colour ?
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Old 26-12-2020, 08:26 PM
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The truth is nobody actually has conclusive proof of what the CP1861 kit actually was or if it changed over the 14 years or so between early 1862 and late 1875 when we have reports of the club’s games.

We know that the earliest clubs were probably a bit haphazard with kit and you can see from many of the earliest pictures, many players don’t have identical kits in the same team line ups.

You have to bear in mind that football was in it’s infancy as a sport and none of the equipment was standard at all, different sized pitches, goals, laws of the game changing regularly until well after CP1861 stopped playing.

There seem to be no definitive reports of the kit except ‘blue and white shirts with blue serge (dark blue) knickerbockers (shorts, such as they were 160 years ago!).

The earliest clubs did seem to favour hoops. We know Palace’s earliest rivals, Barnes and Civil Service, both wore hooped shirts, Forest FC, who went on to become the famous all conquering Wanderers FC that several CP1861 players also played for, wore very narrow red and white pin stripes as Forest, but a very colourful red, gold and black hooped shirt as the Wanderers.

It does seem the majority of clubs that wore ‘halved’ or ‘quartered’ shirts were mainly after 1875, when CP1861 ceased playing.

The Victorians were quite descriptive of most events, but ‘light blue’ never appears in any report of the CP1861 kit, although other teams do have alternative descriptions of blue, so I’m not inclined to think the kit was the light blue and white halves put forward in the ‘1861 Claim’ media produced recently.

Here is a general summary of Victorian kits produced on the great Historical Kit site:

To view the link you have to Register or Login

You may note the majority of clubs from around CP1861s era wore either plain shirts, hoops or stripes, the halves and quarters coming in largely at later dates.
Thanks for the link. I absolutely love that there was a club, which I cannot recall having heard about before, called Hereford Nil Desperandum.
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  #53  
Old 27-12-2020, 06:00 AM
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Not so sure I would want to play against "The Vampires"
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Old 27-12-2020, 06:39 AM
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Not so sure I would want to play against "The Vampires"
Interesting to read that the ‘Vampires’ were actually from Norbury and merged with the original Crouch End later on in the club’s rather illustrious history.
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Old 27-12-2020, 07:02 AM
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Interesting to read that the ‘Vampires’ were actually from Norbury and merged with the original Crouch End later on in the club’s rather illustrious history.
Look at their captain from 1960 - must've been a very cloudy day for him to be out.

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Old 27-12-2020, 08:30 AM
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Look at their captain from 1960 - must've been a very cloudy day for him to be out.

Apparently none of their goalkeepers were good at dealing with crosses. All good cricketers though as they could carry their bat anywhere in the order.



Sporting Life Nov 21 1895
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Old 27-12-2020, 09:25 AM
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Again from November 1895 - a fascinating snapshot of football 125 years ago.

If, like me, you have had played at Norbury Park, you may be surprised to know who’s footsteps you may have been treading in!




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Old 27-12-2020, 03:52 PM
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The truth is nobody actually has conclusive proof of what the CP1861 kit actually was or if it changed over the 14 years or so between early 1862 and late 1875 when we have reports of the club’s games.

We know that the earliest clubs were probably a bit haphazard with kit and you can see from many of the earliest pictures, many players don’t have identical kits in the same team line ups.

You have to bear in mind that football was in it’s infancy as a sport and none of the equipment was standard at all, different sized pitches, goals, laws of the game changing regularly until well after CP1861 stopped playing.

There seem to be no definitive reports of the kit except ‘blue and white shirts with blue serge (dark blue) knickerbockers (shorts, such as they were 160 years ago!).

The earliest clubs did seem to favour hoops. We know Palace’s earliest rivals, Barnes and Civil Service, both wore hooped shirts, Forest FC, who went on to become the famous all conquering Wanderers FC that several CP1861 players also played for, wore very narrow red and white pin stripes as Forest, but a very colourful red, gold and black hooped shirt as the Wanderers.

It does seem the majority of clubs that wore ‘halved’ or ‘quartered’ shirts were mainly after 1875, when CP1861 ceased playing.

The Victorians were quite descriptive of most events, but ‘light blue’ never appears in any report of the CP1861 kit, although other teams do have alternative descriptions of blue, so I’m not inclined to think the kit was the light blue and white halves put forward in the ‘1861 Claim’ media produced recently.


You may note the majority of clubs from around CP1861s era wore either plain shirts, hoops or stripes, the halves and quarters coming in largely at later dates.
Not only was football in its infancy in the 1860's but so was photography and there are very few surviving photographs of the earliest football teams and their kits. Where they do exist, they are mainly of the public schools and universities. Charles Alcock's Football Annual is the only real authoritative source of teams' colours at the time and even he was dependent on club's secretaries accurately submitting the details of their club's colours. Most modern depictions of what the earliest teams’ kits actually looked like are guesswork, because we just don't know.

Likewise we don't know exactly how the 1861 CPFC kit was configured or even what shade of blue it was.

What we have got factually confirmed is that Alcock confirms it was blue and white in his Football Annual and, given that he had actually played in the kit, he never describes it as being configured in hoops, stripes or bars, a description often given for other clubs' kits in the Annual.

What we also have confirmed, by Victorian newspapers, is that the external ironwork of the Crystal Palace itself was painted blue and white, both in Hyde Park and at Sydenham. Colour prints of the time show the blue as being a sky blue and the Hereford Times of March 11 1854, confirmed this saying 'The colour of the exterior is admirable. the white and blue of the iron framework are exactly equivalent to the colour which would have arisen from the complete construction of the edifice in glass. A person not knowing how it was built might very well believe, on the first glance, that the entire building was of that material.' To have looked like glass the framework could only have been painted in sky blue and white, as confirmed by contemporary prints.

It seems logical to conclude, in the absence of any photographic or other evidence, that the 1861 CPFC kit mirrored the sky blue and white of the framework of the building as these were the colours of the Crystal Palace itself; and in the absence of any evidence that the kit was formed of hoops, stripes or bars, that it was a simple bi-colour design of blue and white. Having put this suggestion to Palace they are happy to accept that reasoning, in the absence of any evidence or supported argument to the contrary, which is why it appears in this form on the Palace website (although the addition of the CPC 1861 logo on the left breast is their idea)
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Old 27-12-2020, 06:01 PM
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Well Peter, we will have to agree to disagree, because I’m quite sure that if the club played in Light Blue, they would have been listed as doing so.

For example, Blackburn Rovers (formed in 1875 the last year we have records of CP1861).

Nearly all but the earliest records describe them as playing in Light Blue and they are also called the ‘Light Blues’ in press reports for good measure: Here is a report of them bringing back the FA Cup to Blackburn in 1884 after defeating Queens Park (of Glasgow) in the Final - the town’s other team Blackburn Olympic had been defeated by Queens Park in the Semi Finals and they were also honoured on ‘Rovers Return’











In the above picture you can see one player, Whitfield, wearing a Light Blue and White halved shirt. He was neither a CP1861 player or from Blackburn Rovers, he is wearing the Old Etonians colours.
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Old 28-12-2020, 06:49 AM
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First of all this has been a very interesting debate that has been made by some very knowledgable individuals and in a very good spirit, so thank you for that

There indeed is a lot of contradictory evidence on the shirt design and colours (if indeed they all wore the same design of shirt, given that other teams didn't) and Alcock may have simply taken the safer option of just naming the colours.

Where exactly the clubs would have got their shirts from is interesting, there is unlikely to be the local sports shop and the kits would have had to have been a mixture from what sports were available namely tennis, cricket, golf etc in the early days until some firms started to specialise in football
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