Home | Forums | Gallery | Twitter
 
CPFC BBS  

Go Back   CPFC BBS Ľ Off Topic Ľ The Politics Forum

Notices

The Politics Forum Discussions that are wholly or mainly concerned with UK politics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #11421  
Old 02-08-2021, 06:45 AM
DANGERMOUSE's Avatar
DANGERMOUSE DANGERMOUSE is offline
Greatest Mouse Detective
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In a post box in the heart of Mayfair, and at Lloyd's
Age: 45
Posts: 24,558
Rep Power: 21474856
DANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Why? Is millions dying of starvation, war and preventable diseases every year, while others have billions, not barbaric?
You have heard of communism, right?
__________________
PENFOLD, SHUSH!
Reply With Quote
  #11422  
Old 02-08-2021, 06:47 AM
DANGERMOUSE's Avatar
DANGERMOUSE DANGERMOUSE is offline
Greatest Mouse Detective
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In a post box in the heart of Mayfair, and at Lloyd's
Age: 45
Posts: 24,558
Rep Power: 21474856
DANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
But the U.K. is intrinsically connected to the wider system. Leaving aside the UKís role in wars, the finance capital, hedge funds, wealth, multinationals etc are all totally dependent on the wider misery of capitalism. Then of course there is the arms trade.
So your pipedream depends on simultaneous worldwide revolution. Remind me how likely that is?
__________________
PENFOLD, SHUSH!
Reply With Quote
  #11423  
Old 02-08-2021, 07:08 AM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 22,771
Rep Power: 21474853
cockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
So your pipedream depends on simultaneous worldwide revolution. Remind me how likely that is?
Which isn’t really an answer to my question. Do you think the current system and the barbarism it entails is as good as it gets for humanity and that anything fundamentally better than that is a pipe dream? Depressing for humanity, no?
Reply With Quote
  #11424  
Old 02-08-2021, 07:56 AM
DANGERMOUSE's Avatar
DANGERMOUSE DANGERMOUSE is offline
Greatest Mouse Detective
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In a post box in the heart of Mayfair, and at Lloyd's
Age: 45
Posts: 24,558
Rep Power: 21474856
DANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Which isn’t really an answer to my question. Do you think the current system and the barbarism it entails is as good as it gets for humanity and that anything fundamentally better than that is a pipe dream? Depressing for humanity, no?
Humanity is progressing. Slowly, and not without setbacks, but we are getting wealthier as a planet, and Britain as a society. You only have to think of what is considered to be 'poverty' today compared to 100 years ago: today's poor have material benefits that did not even exist as luxuries then. This progress will continue.

I am not going to get depressed about something that might be desirable but is impossible to attain. And that's your major problem: you live in a political daydream, pining after an impossible socialistic nirvana that is so unrealistic it's a joke. (A sinister joke, because of the damage that is done by zealots trying to achieve the unachievable, and the chilling curtailment of personal liberty that your socialist nirvana requires.)

Meanwhile, when anyone points out the many failures of communism whenever it's been put into practice, you squirm and wriggle and come out with arcane political theory to argue that Lenin and Stalin and Mao weren't communists, actually, and that the poverty, hardship, repression, purges, wars and millions of deaths for which they were responsible somehow don't count: that (your) communism's record is spotless.

It's risible. Take a step back and think about it. It really is a ridiculous position to hold. I bet in the darker recesses of the internet we could find people who argue that Hitler wasn't a proper fascist, and the Nazis' crimes can't be laid at their door, no sirree, because they believe in pure far-right ideology and not Hitlerism. Your position is exactly the same from the other extreme.

If you care about the poor as much as you say you do, you need to get real. You need to realise that communism is unattainable, and work for more practical political and economic aims. I'm not here to bang the drum for Labour, but if they are proposing policies which mitigate a current scenario you abhor, you need to back them. Even if those policies are not ideal (even in realistic political terms, let alone your communist utopia) if they represent an improvement, a step on the journey you want to travel, you should back them. Effect the change, make that improvement to people's lives, then move on to the next battle.

Politics is the art of the possible. And your politics are so extreme that they are not only impossible, but also ****** any progress others might make in that general direction. And I doubt many people visiting a food bank today will appreciate that you're not prepared to help them unless it's by a simultaneous global communist revolution.
__________________
PENFOLD, SHUSH!
Reply With Quote
  #11425  
Old 02-08-2021, 07:58 AM
DANGERMOUSE's Avatar
DANGERMOUSE DANGERMOUSE is offline
Greatest Mouse Detective
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In a post box in the heart of Mayfair, and at Lloyd's
Age: 45
Posts: 24,558
Rep Power: 21474856
DANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is here
The asterisks have blanked out 'r.etard'.
__________________
PENFOLD, SHUSH!
Reply With Quote
  #11426  
Old 02-08-2021, 08:38 AM
Adlerhorst's Avatar
Adlerhorst Adlerhorst is offline
Ichiro!
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Hertfordshire
Age: 43
Posts: 74,041
Rep Power: 21474854
Adlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is here
Yes, because people use it as an insult and that’s not very nice.
__________________
The Defector looks like no other breaking pitch in the game. It is well-supinated, leaving the right hand of Fernandez at a fastball trajectory before the laws of physics cease to apply and the laws of awesome take over.
Reply With Quote
  #11427  
Old 02-08-2021, 08:51 AM
SE25 exile's Avatar
SE25 exile SE25 exile is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: on a small island with too many small minds.
Posts: 25,357
Rep Power: 21474858
SE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
Humanity is progressing. Slowly, and not without setbacks, but we are getting wealthier as a planet, and Britain as a society. You only have to think of what is considered to be 'poverty' today compared to 100 years ago: today's poor have material benefits that did not even exist as luxuries then. This progress will continue.
That progress in improving the lives of the poor has been made possible by the Labour movement, when fighting for improved wages, better hours and holidays, the NHS and the welfare state, etc over the last one hundred years. This would not have been handed to them in any significant way by leaving it to the market or by trickle down economics.

However, inequality has risen markedly, and that is something we should all be concerned about. The capitalist system is rigged to favour the well off, and money rules the roost to the extent that the rich can purchase favour in all walks of life, especially in politics right up to the highest levels. The less well off have less influence on their own lot as a consequence, and that has to be corrected.
Reply With Quote
  #11428  
Old 02-08-2021, 09:42 AM
johnbush johnbush is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: winterborne zelston
Posts: 2,407
Rep Power: 8608632
johnbush came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjohnbush came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjohnbush came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjohnbush came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjohnbush came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjohnbush came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjohnbush came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjohnbush came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjohnbush came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjohnbush came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjohnbush came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
...we are getting wealthier as a planet...
Talk about head in the sand!
__________________
Michael Road
Reply With Quote
  #11429  
Old 02-08-2021, 10:20 AM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 22,771
Rep Power: 21474853
cockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
Humanity is progressing. Slowly, and not without setbacks, but we are getting wealthier as a planet, and Britain as a society. You only have to think of what is considered to be 'poverty' today compared to 100 years ago: today's poor have material benefits that did not even exist as luxuries then. This progress will continue.

I am not going to get depressed about something that might be desirable but is impossible to attain. And that's your major problem: you live in a political daydream, pining after an impossible socialistic nirvana that is so unrealistic it's a joke. (A sinister joke, because of the damage that is done by zealots trying to achieve the unachievable, and the chilling curtailment of personal liberty that your socialist nirvana requires.)

Meanwhile, when anyone points out the many failures of communism whenever it's been put into practice, you squirm and wriggle and come out with arcane political theory to argue that Lenin and Stalin and Mao weren't communists, actually, and that the poverty, hardship, repression, purges, wars and millions of deaths for which they were responsible somehow don't count: that (your) communism's record is spotless.

It's risible. Take a step back and think about it. It really is a ridiculous position to hold. I bet in the darker recesses of the internet we could find people who argue that Hitler wasn't a proper fascist, and the Nazis' crimes can't be laid at their door, no sirree, because they believe in pure far-right ideology and not Hitlerism. Your position is exactly the same from the other extreme.

If you care about the poor as much as you say you do, you need to get real. You need to realise that communism is unattainable, and work for more practical political and economic aims. I'm not here to bang the drum for Labour, but if they are proposing policies which mitigate a current scenario you abhor, you need to back them. Even if those policies are not ideal (even in realistic political terms, let alone your communist utopia) if they represent an improvement, a step on the journey you want to travel, you should back them. Effect the change, make that improvement to people's lives, then move on to the next battle.

Politics is the art of the possible. And your politics are so extreme that they are not only impossible, but also ****** any progress others might make in that general direction. And I doubt many people visiting a food bank today will appreciate that you're not prepared to help them unless it's by a simultaneous global communist revolution.
Because something hasn’t happened doesn’t mean it can’t. Many things we have today that are progressive took a lot of struggle and sacrifice by those who wanted a different society. And were told at the time what they wanted was unrealistic and utopian.

Society has got wealthier but the fact that for many wage increases have stagnated and that hundreds of millions still live in awful conditions is an indictment of this system. It’s easy of course to say maybe one day after slow progress things might change for the better if you aren’t one of the people living in war, starvation and dying of curable diseases.

It would be quite something given how humanity has developed technology and knowledge if there hadn’t been improvements but what is happening now is ever more wealth is going to the super rich. Democracy has gone backwards, and authoritarian capitalism is spreading.

I have no issue saying that Stalinism is an awful system and of course any change can have danger of failing but it has to be said that capitalism has produced just as awful regimes and still does today. But we the society I want is about increasing personal and collective liberty not curtailing it.

The idea that it’s the same as fascism is ridiculous as the aims of fascism are utterly reactionary.

As for day to day aims thanks for your lecture but I have and do support reforms, including in practical campaigns. Indeed I vote labour. If you want to take it to the level of a moral lecture I suspect I’ve done far more than you in campaigning for reforms and getting change.

But I think you are utterly cynical in your drab horizons of what society can do and acceptance of the awful things in this world as inevitable.

Last edited by cockneyrebel; 02-08-2021 at 10:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #11430  
Old 02-08-2021, 10:27 AM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 22,771
Rep Power: 21474853
cockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
That progress in improving the lives of the poor has been made possible by the Labour movement, when fighting for improved wages, better hours and holidays, the NHS and the welfare state, etc over the last one hundred years. This would not have been handed to them in any significant way by leaving it to the market or by trickle down economics.

However, inequality has risen markedly, and that is something we should all be concerned about. The capitalist system is rigged to favour the well off, and money rules the roost to the extent that the rich can purchase favour in all walks of life, especially in politics right up to the highest levels. The less well off have less influence on their own lot as a consequence, and that has to be corrected.
Indeed. Much of what we have today was fought for in radical and intense struggles. People were laughed at when when they fought for many things that today would be accepted as normal.

Itís true that attempts for alternative to capitalism have so far failed (sometimes in awful ways), or been crushed brutally by capitalism. But that doesnít make the crimes and barbarity of the system we have any better or mean people should give up on thinking fundamental change is possible. Otherwise it means accepting misery for a large chunk of the global population.
Reply With Quote
  #11431  
Old 02-08-2021, 10:28 AM
weltklasse's Avatar
weltklasse weltklasse is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Horsham, West Sussex
Posts: 39,498
Rep Power: 21474857
weltklasse Sam the man is hereweltklasse Sam the man is hereweltklasse Sam the man is hereweltklasse Sam the man is hereweltklasse Sam the man is hereweltklasse Sam the man is hereweltklasse Sam the man is hereweltklasse Sam the man is hereweltklasse Sam the man is hereweltklasse Sam the man is hereweltklasse Sam the man is here
What CR calls cynicism most people would call realism.

this quote is quite schoolboy in its sillyness.

"If you want to take it to the level of a moral lecture I suspect I’ve done far more than you in campaigning for reforms and getting change."
__________________
Don't worry, boys, we'll weather this storm of approval and come out as hated as ever.

SaulAlinsky
Reply With Quote
  #11432  
Old 02-08-2021, 11:03 AM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 22,771
Rep Power: 21474853
cockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is here
I’ll say again how much I admire the way SE25 posts. I think some of the grief he has got at times by a handful of people on the Covid thread is very unfair.

He is a heartfelt poster, who doesn’t insult even when provoked and doesn’t patronise. I might disagree with him on some things but he would be a poster who I would aspire to be like.
Reply With Quote
  #11433  
Old 02-08-2021, 11:49 AM
Palacefan420 Palacefan420 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 114
Rep Power: 1535386
Palacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mine
I don't understand this current Labour parties obsession with punching it's self in the face. All they ever do is brief the media on how rubbish they are but expect that is going to win them voters?

Whether The Labour party is to the left or to the centre seems irrelevant when, by all accounts, it seems that the parties internal structures are what are deeply broken before we even begin to discuss the message they are presenting to the electorate.
Reply With Quote
  #11434  
Old 02-08-2021, 12:37 PM
baldeagle68's Avatar
baldeagle68 baldeagle68 is offline
Our day will come Again!
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cheshire Now that's a round trip for home games!
Age: 61
Posts: 1,088
Rep Power: 7418600
baldeagle68 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietbaldeagle68 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietbaldeagle68 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietbaldeagle68 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietbaldeagle68 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietbaldeagle68 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietbaldeagle68 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietbaldeagle68 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietbaldeagle68 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietbaldeagle68 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietbaldeagle68 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palacefan420 View Post
I don't understand this current Labour parties obsession with punching it's self in the face. All they ever do is brief the media on how rubbish they are but expect that is going to win them voters?

Whether The Labour party is to the left or to the centre seems irrelevant when, by all accounts, it seems that the parties internal structures are what are deeply broken before we even begin to discuss the message they are presenting to the electorate.
Not sure itís the Labour Party that promotes the image more the power of the press/media and theyíll add whichever spin they like.

But ask yourself a simple question even forgetting the politics are you happy that any government no matter Tory Labour or any of the others conduct themselves in the corrupt way that this government does and lies throughout the whole process.

My opinion is everything from Brexit to now has been has been done with the sole purpose of benefitting the Tories and I donít mean the working class wannabe ones I mean the really privileged that make 100s of millions on the back of everything the government fu*k up.

These people donít care about the UK they donít care about the masses the working classes they care about their money and if they can make 100ís of million in the process do they careÖ People will vote them out in the end then Labour come in to try and repair the damage but the people donít like that because itís expensive and they never get the timeÖand so the merry go round goesÖ
__________________
Since 67/68....And yes it's a hell of a round trip for home games but that's what supporting my club is all about.
Reply With Quote
  #11435  
Old 02-08-2021, 01:58 PM
ms21 ms21 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Age: 26
Posts: 1,004
Rep Power: 9574140
ms21 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietms21 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietms21 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietms21 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietms21 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietms21 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietms21 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietms21 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietms21 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietms21 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietms21 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Why? Is millions dying of starvation, war and preventable diseases every year, while others have billions, not barbaric?
The first part of your post is, the latter isn't. It has nothing to do with it and I'm not sure why you assume it has.

Let's take the richest man in the world for example - Jeff Bezos. His net worth is almost $200bn, so why doesn't he just end starvation? Well, for starters his wealth isn't sitting in some Santander savings account ready to end poverty at the click of a button, the vast majority of it is in Amazon shares. So his wealth is merely a reflection of the value of a company he quite literally started himself. Even if he were to flog every single one of those shares on the open market, the value of them would plummet and all of a sudden he wouldn't be worth such an obscene amount anymore. He'd still be rich, for sure. But he wouldn't be $200bn rich.

Moreover, starvation is not something you simply throw money at. Even if he did have access to $200bn in cash or even if we take it a step further, and the entire world threw every resource they had into ending world hunger for the next year, there are still numerous issues we'd have to contend with:

1. What would we then do about all of the other enormous issues facing the world and it's various constituents?
2. How would we ensure these resources reached the people they needed to most? In many instances, we're talking about countries that are ruled by dictators, or don't have the infrastructure to store the food, or even the roads to transport it.
3. What do you suppose happens to workers in developing countries such as farmers when there is no longer a market for their produce? That's right, they go out of business and slide further into poverty.

That's not to say people like Bezos aren't problematic. Of course they are. The levels of wealthy inequality are not sustainable as they have the potential to become undemocratic & tyrannical. But this notion that some people are rich and some people are not, & therefore what we need to do is make rich people poorer, and that'll end poverty, is wrong on a quite destructive level. These issues are complex, messy & you do them a total disservice when you by claim they are all merely a result of billionaires & "capitalism" - which is increasingly just becoming a buzzword people on the modern left fling at everything that is bad in society. Poverty and barbarity was around for thousands of years before both capitalism & billionaires.

Capitalism does have many flaws and I'd argue it's currently in crisis. It's a shame that progressive politics has opted to go with toxic, divisive and shallow identity politics & "owning the gammon" as this would be a perfect opportunity for it to stake its claim & reshape the global economic system. Nevertheless, whilst I'm no fan of Keir Starmer, the notion he is enabling barbarity because he doesn't resort to infantile grunting about billionaires starving everyone to death is a complete nonsense.

Last edited by ms21; 02-08-2021 at 02:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11436  
Old 02-08-2021, 03:04 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 22,771
Rep Power: 21474853
cockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by ms21 View Post
The first part of your post is, the latter isn't. It has nothing to do with it and I'm not sure why you assume it has.

Let's take the richest man in the world for example - Jeff Bezos. His net worth is almost $200bn, so why doesn't he just end starvation? Well, for starters his wealth isn't sitting in some Santander savings account ready to end poverty at the click of a button, the vast majority of it is in Amazon shares. So his wealth is merely a reflection of the value of a company he quite literally started himself. Even if he were to flog every single one of those shares on the open market, the value of them would plummet and all of a sudden he wouldn't be worth such an obscene amount anymore. He'd still be rich, for sure. But he wouldn't be $200bn rich.

Moreover, starvation is not something you simply throw money at. Even if he did have access to $200bn in cash or even if we take it a step further, and the entire world threw every resource they had into ending world hunger for the next year, there are still numerous issues we'd have to contend with:

1. What would we then do about all of the other enormous issues facing the world and it's various constituents?
2. How would we ensure these resources reached the people they needed to most? In many instances, we're talking about countries that are ruled by dictators, or don't have the infrastructure to store the food, or even the roads to transport it.
3. What do you suppose happens to workers in developing countries such as farmers when there is no longer a market for their produce? That's right, they go out of business and slide further into poverty.

That's not to say people like Bezos aren't problematic. Of course they are. The levels of wealthy inequality are not sustainable as they have the potential to become undemocratic & tyrannical. But this notion that some people are rich and some people are not, & therefore what we need to do is make rich people poorer, and that'll end poverty, is wrong on a quite destructive level. These issues are complex, messy & you do them a total disservice when you by claim they are all merely a result of billionaires & "capitalism" - which is increasingly just becoming a buzzword people on the modern left fling at everything that is bad in society. Poverty and barbarity was around for thousands of years before both capitalism & billionaires.

Capitalism does have many flaws and I'd argue it's currently in crisis. It's a shame that progressive politics has opted to go with toxic, divisive and shallow identity politics & "owning the gammon" as this would be a perfect opportunity for it to stake its claim & reshape the global economic system. Nevertheless, whilst I'm no fan of Keir Starmer, the notion he is enabling barbarity because he doesn't resort to infantile grunting about billionaires starving everyone to death is a complete nonsense.
This appears to be a post addressing something someone else has said.

1) no idea how identity politics came in to it, havenít mentioned it. Iíve never used the term gammon.

2) I never said take all the money from billionaires and give it away. Real change would involve a fundamental restructuring of society where productive forces are used to collectivity improve society rather than primarily for individual profit.

3) I didnít say Starmer was enabling barbarism by the simplistic notion you mentioned. I said he wonít do anything to change any of those fundamentals, and he wonít. But while we are on that topic the Labour Party was set up to stop more radical change and that has always been part of its purpose. If it ever did it would split apart.
Reply With Quote
  #11437  
Old 02-08-2021, 03:26 PM
Palacefan420 Palacefan420 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 114
Rep Power: 1535386
Palacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of minePalacefan420 : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mine
Quote:
Originally Posted by baldeagle68 View Post
Not sure itís the Labour Party that promotes the image more the power of the press/media and theyíll add whichever spin they like.
A lot of the quotes I am talking about are coming directly from named Labour sources to friendly journalists.
Reply With Quote
  #11438  
Old 09-08-2021, 06:46 PM
SE25 exile's Avatar
SE25 exile SE25 exile is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: on a small island with too many small minds.
Posts: 25,357
Rep Power: 21474858
SE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is here
Conservative 40% (-1)
Labour 37% (+3)
Liberal Democrat 9% (-2)
Green 6% (–)
Scottish National Party 4% (–)
Reform UK 3% (–)
Plaid Cymru 1% (+1)
Other 1% (-1)

Today's release from Redfield and Wilton
Reply With Quote
  #11439  
Old 09-08-2021, 06:57 PM
Golf Boy's Avatar
Golf Boy Golf Boy is offline
I'm not divorced
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The Baltic Sea
Age: 52
Posts: 44,236
Rep Power: 21474854
Golf Boy Sam the man is hereGolf Boy Sam the man is hereGolf Boy Sam the man is hereGolf Boy Sam the man is hereGolf Boy Sam the man is hereGolf Boy Sam the man is hereGolf Boy Sam the man is hereGolf Boy Sam the man is hereGolf Boy Sam the man is hereGolf Boy Sam the man is hereGolf Boy Sam the man is here
I imagine CR’s ideas are the only ones that will save humanity in the future climate chaos. Is it’s left to capitalism then the future is at best dystopian.
Reply With Quote
  #11440  
Old 10-08-2021, 07:15 AM
DANGERMOUSE's Avatar
DANGERMOUSE DANGERMOUSE is offline
Greatest Mouse Detective
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In a post box in the heart of Mayfair, and at Lloyd's
Age: 45
Posts: 24,558
Rep Power: 21474856
DANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is here
The environmental practices of the USSR and Communist China are an example to us all.
__________________
PENFOLD, SHUSH!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.